Class: Cars, Hatchback — Model origin:
Background vehicle
Author | Message |
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◊ 2007-07-16 21:39 |
It's a ca. 1977 Renault 20 |
◊ 2007-07-16 22:03 |
1980 Renault 20 Diesel |
◊ 2007-07-17 17:06 |
Considering it's a Diesel, these wheels identify a GTD. |
◊ 2007-07-17 19:49 |
Mouais... Pas que la GTD. Il y a eu aussi des versions essence. De là à dire que c'est obligatoirement un Mazout... |
◊ 2007-07-17 20:00 |
There are not many twenty year old diesels in Holland: though the fuel price is relatively very low, the road taxes are much higher (2 or 3 times the amount of comparable gaz versions). Therefore most diesels are being used intensively (at least 20.000 kms a year) and won't reach the age of twenty years. On the other hand it is interesting to have a (imported) diesel of more than 25 years, because then you don't have to pay road taxes any more. |
◊ 2007-07-17 20:50 |
Since it was listed as a 20 Diesel, I tried to understand if there was some detail that could identify it. Actually, in "L' Automobile - Toutes les Voitures du Monde 1980-81", among several pictures of Renault 20s the only one with these wheels was identified as a 20 GTD. Talking about old Diesels ( and just to remain in French makes ) I know of a Peugeot 205 with a 1769cc engine that has made 600000 kms so far without major problems. I don't know if these Renault units were equally robust, but I suppose they were able to do a lot of trouble-free kms. |
◊ 2007-07-17 23:51 |
I do not know for R20/R30, but R21 is capable of such high number of kilometers for sure. |
◊ 2007-07-18 00:04 |
Biensûr, our BX (1.4 gaz-engin) has had 300.000 kms and is still almost as new. But still, diesels are generally used as company cars, not very well taken care of and, because of the high taxes they find their way to the scrapyard quite early in Holland. But of course this Renault could be a diesel, I just wanted to say tat it is more probably that it is a gaz version. |
◊ 2007-07-18 18:41 |
You're a bit wrong, DynaMike. In Germany, I think also in Holland, Belgium and France, Diesel-cars are very rare on scrapyards. Nearly all of them, even when they are quite gone and broken, are going to the export. I see it daily on my way to work on the Autobahn A 2. The direction to the East is full with trucks from Lithuania, Latuvia and Belarus, loaded with used cars - a lot of the loaded cars still have Dutch, Belgian or French license-plates, not onyl German. On the direction to the West you see also several trucks, loaded with used cars. These ones are going to Africa (via Rotterdam harbour). You can recognize used cars for Africa not only at the direction of the trucks. They are at first always four-door-cars, often japanese models, passenger cars, also buses and jeeps, Mercedes -mainly Diesel-, some Audis, VW T3-Buses and for francophone African countries several Peugeots and Citroens. And at all of these cars turn-signals, mirrors, badges and wipers are mounted off. The buses and vans are also loaded with used washing-machines and refridgerators. In Germany 80% of used cars are going finally to the export, not on the local scrap-yards. I think, my fathers old Passat Variant, too - in 24 hours, when the eBay-auction is finished. |
◊ 2007-07-18 18:52 |
Indeed, they quickly disappear from roads, but to go to export and not to the scrap yard. I think that Belgium exports many of its cars because here 50% of the cars are company-owned, so they are replaced after 4 or 5 years. |
◊ 2007-07-18 19:06 |
After Saddam was overthrown, Iraq was flooded with secondhand cars from Europe. A lot of them seemed to be Opel Vectras. |
◊ 2007-07-18 19:10 |
I agree with both of you, Ingo and Antoine: these cars won't go to the scrapyard but will be exported. But still, my only real point was to state that it is not very probable to find a twenty year old Diesel version of the Renault in Holland, whereas the gaz-engined models could have survived (one careful older owner) or could have been imported (only five years of paying taxes left). Btw the towing hook seems to be a non-French model, and we Dutch are famous about towing our caravans, aren't we? So I guess this is an original Dutch car. And, it's true that the hubcaps are those of a circa 1980 GTD (or a slightly more recent TD), but they can easily be exchanged, I suppose. |
◊ 2007-07-18 21:19 |
@DynaMike: has the vacation-time now started in Holland? Today, just a few hours ago I've been angry about some cars with camping-trailers and bike-racks on the roof, which have blocaded the left lane of the Autobahn. They had yellow license-plates I'm not really sure, if the Renault 20 on the picture has hubcaps. It seems more like alloy-wheels. The design is similar to the alloy-wheels, the most Renault Fuego had. @Gag: you're right. The Iraquis like Opel-cars. Just for joke I was thinking, if my father will be seen as a supporter of the terrorism, when his old Passat will be sold to an Arabian export-dealer and will be used in the Iraq to transport bombs - im Germany all car-export-dealers are Arabian, except a few Russians. In our license-plate-collector's-forum someone has shown pictures from a CIA-side from license-plates of bombing-cars. Two of the plates were from Germany. One was a regular one, annother one an export-plate. Both were not valid any more - but who knows it outside Germany? The last official owner of the license-plate you can find out easily. |
◊ 2007-07-18 21:25 |
I once read a news story about some American soldiers who were searching a house thought to be used by insurgents and were perplexed to find an American minivan with Texas plates in the garage. They seemed to think that it was evidence of terrorist connections in the US, and were perhaps unaware that the international secondhand car trade exists. -- Last edit: 2007-07-18 21:25:46 |
◊ 2007-07-18 22:25 |
Luckily two of our four cars have dark blue plates with white characters; and none of them have a hook to tow a caravan or to fix a standard for bicyles... |
◊ 2007-07-18 22:48 |
The most of the Dutch K 70 in our club also have the old dark blue plates. But these can cause irritations, too. One of our Dutch guys has heard in Eastern Germany: "Look, black license-plate, it's an old Polish car" |
◊ 2007-07-20 06:28 |
Hmmm, why are Germans in Holland allways on the left lane? (Last sunday from The Hague to Deventer). In Germany they go back to the right lane very quickly when someone wants to pass, but in Holland??? No way... They have taken over 'our' (not me ) bad habits... -- Last edit: 2007-07-20 08:37:29 |
◊ 2007-07-21 17:34 |
I don't know. It's not me. I also hate it, when the people do it here. Perhaps in Holland they German drivers think "It's max.120 km/h, so when I'm driving 125 km/h, noone can come from the back." It's nice to drive on the Dutch Autobahn. They are in much better condition than in Germany. |
◊ 2007-07-21 18:50 |
You should see some of the wonderful highways that we have in Belgium, with holes, groves, joins, etc. |
◊ 2007-07-21 19:36 |
When you drive from Duisburg over Eindhoven to Antwerpen, you feel, when you reach Belgium - because of the "badumpa"-sound, when the Dutch asphalt changes to the Belgium concrete Anyway, until the middle of the 90ies a lot of German Autobahn-routes were still from the early 50ies, some parts even from the 30ies. Right know the cross "Kamener Kreuz" Northeast of Dortmund is under costruction. The old bridge A 1 over A 2 was built in 1935. |
◊ 2007-07-21 19:52 |
I see those trucks everyday from where I work, loaded with japanese cars and vans, mostly Toyotas, without turn signals or wipers. They're mostly petrol cars, from Austria, France, Germany or even the Czech Republic. The older ones are just parts cars, so they're crammed with stuff inside, and the doors are welded shut ! If you're thinking about buying an old car and save until it becomes a rare collectible, I have one tip : an 80's Toyota Corolla ! So many of them are going to Africa right now, you'll be lucky to find one in western Europe in a few years ! |
◊ 2007-07-21 21:03 |
This problem exists for fans of old Mercedes, for the W 114/115 and especially the W 123. It's very had for them to find four-door-sedans or the T-model. It's much easier to find the C-Coupé. Some years ago the streets in Germany wer full of these Mercedes, now they're nearly totally gone - but not to the local scrapyards. Nowadays the w 124 is getting more and more rare in Germany. But my father's 1990 Passat Variant (sold at eBay two days ago for 451 Euro) will not go to Africa. A Russian dealer has bought it. The Passat probably will have still a long life, I think a Kolchos-farmer will transport his sheeps and goats with our old family-car. -- Last edit: 2007-07-21 21:05:53 |
◊ 2007-07-21 21:29 |
In Finland tens of thousands used cars are imported from Germany every year. Average age of imported car is now about 10 years due to high taxes. Mercedes-Benz W124 has been one of the most popular cars to import. These cars are of legendary quality and there's a very high demand of this model to Africa, Russia and East-European countries. My father has a few old W123 models sitting in his driveway and once in awhile someone tryes to buy them, last time it was someone from Nigeria... Also old Japanese cars, mainly Toyota (Camry, Corolla, Hiace), are going to Africa. However Finland is full of old Japanese cars and Toyota Corolla has been the sales leader for many decades now so Japanese cars won't become rare here. But one car which is increasingly disappearing from the Finnish roads is a Peugeot 504. Few years ago you could see a 504 pick-up in construction work sites but now they're all gone. It's sad that even restored 504 sedans are bought to Africa because the price remains relatively low. |
◊ 2007-07-21 21:41 |
In the other direction several Germans are buying brand new cars in Finland because the netto-price without tax is much cheaper than here. You must pay the German tax, when vou import the car, but this is lower, so you can save sometimes up to 3000 Euro for a Golf or Mercedes A-class. I know this way of importing and exporting cars inside of Europe. i've bought my K 70 in San Remo/Italy ad I've helped swedish friends, I think five times, to export used cars -mainly TDI's to Sweden. If you drive an old Mercedes or an japanese car or a four-door-Peugeot, or an Audi -but others, too- in Germany, you can get during some years a big collection of dozens cards "I want to buy your car. I'm buying every car. You can call me day and night" or so. |
◊ 2007-07-21 21:43 |
This has been very interesting to follow. In 2003 when the war started, Iraqi roads were full of 1970's cars mostly American (Chevy Caprice, Nova, even Camaro) and a very wide selection of European cars (Fiat 131, Renault 16, MB W115, VW Beetle etc.etc.). After Saddam was overthrown used cars market exploded. Suddenly Iraqi roads were full of used cars imported from Europe. I heard a story that one Iraqi car importer even had his own ship and imported thousands of cars each week. These days it seems that Opel is the most popular make in Iraq especially models Vectra A and Omega A. Often these cars still have a 'D' sticker (Deutschland) in the back. Second group of popular cars is South Korean cars; Pony, Sephia and Sonata. In light trucks segment Kia Besta and Pregio are in dominant position. Most of the taxis in that country are still either old Toyota Crown's or VW Passat's. Lately I've seen new Gaz Volgas used as a taxis. Security forces use new Chevrolet Silverado pick-ups and old UAZ 469 cars. |
◊ 2007-07-21 21:49 |
I think the UAZs in Iraq are actually new: http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/2-2004/ff/itr/ Here's an Australian army news report with a confused mention of "the new Ukraine-sourced UAZ Kraz 11- tonne truck and the UAZ YA3 jeep". ("YA3" is a misunderstanding of the Cyrillic letters for UAZ.) Link to "www.defence.gov.au" And IIRC during the 1980s the Iraqi government bought a batch of Brazilian Volkwagens (Santanas, I think) directly from Brazil, bypassing Volkswagen's authorised distributor in Iraq. -- Last edit: 2007-07-21 21:51:37 |
◊ 2007-07-21 21:57 |
I've seen a TV-reortage about that guy. He is sitting in Hamburg. He told in that film, that his ship loaded with used cars, was the fist civil ship after the end of the war ("end of the war" in the first meaning of the U.S.government), which has reached the port of Basra. He treats his workers like a slave-master. They must load the ship as piece-workers. Very bad, if they let too much space between the cars. He told, that a lost place for one car costs him 500$. After the second mistake of a worker like this, he will fire that guy. If a car doesn't run, it will be pushed inside the ship with a Toyota-Hiace-wreck, which has mounted old tires at the front bumper. Between a Mercedes W 123 and an Audi 100 was a bit space. You cannot waste that space. So you took a Fiat Tipo and press it between the cars, until it sticks. This is economical shipping. -- Last edit: 2007-07-21 21:58:42 |
◊ 2007-07-21 23:58 |
Like Peugeot 505 few years ago, it seems that they became quite rare. I've heard that in France they have problems to find parts for some engine versions. I get these cards often on my 206 SW, but I am not sure that they really put these on cars that they want to buy; do not they put that on all the cars? |
◊ 2007-07-22 13:25 |
In the past the guys put these cards only at some special cars (Japanese models, Mercedes, Peugeot), but nowadays at nearly ever car, sometimes except brand new ones. But at our company-parking-place every car get these cards, usually two times per week. Also brand new cars. This can make the owner angry. Just bought something new, just a few days on the road, less than 1000 km on the tachometer - and still the card of the Arabian scrap-car-dealer under the wiper -- Last edit: 2007-07-22 13:27:22 |
◊ 2007-07-22 13:31 |
I even find these cards at my 1973 VW K 70 (with historic license-plate). A friend has heard once from a Nigerian guy in Hamburg, who deals with used cars for export since 1968, that the first popular cars for export in the late 60ies were old Mercedes (W 120 and W 110) Peugeot 403 and -naturally- 404, also Borgward Isabella. Later, in the 70ies he exported also a lot of VW 411/412 and K 70, also to countries, where these models weren't officially exported that much. |
◊ 2007-08-15 20:42 |
My father just sold MB W123 240D and W123 230E. Not surprisingly their new home will be Nigeria |
◊ 2007-08-22 20:02 |
My Dad's old Passat will be running in Russia, probably on the countryside in Siberia - it's not representative enough any more for young, rich, urban people http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330146542775 -- Last edit: 2007-08-22 20:03:24 |
◊ 2007-08-30 13:00 |
I hope everything is OK with the payment? |