Comments about this vehicle

Author	Message
Ingo ◊ 2011-01-09 18:00	96
130rapid ◊ 2011-01-09 18:07	The Saab 96 was available on Czechoslovakian market by Tuzex, if I good remember.
130rapid ◊ 2011-01-09 18:14	Oh, I have been found nice source of Tuzex 4-wheel stars near year-by-year. Link to "skoda-virt.cz" (scroll down) I'll translate soon.
Ingo ◊ 2011-01-09 18:15	You let me know, if you could find something for me?
Weasel1984 ◊ 2011-01-09 18:19	There are also cars imported via Mototechna.
130rapid ◊ 2011-01-09 18:30	Weasel1984 wrote There are also cars imported via Mototechna. I know. (...) Yummy, it's amazing lecture... -- Last edit: 2011-01-09 18:58:29
130rapid ◊ 2011-01-09 19:59	The list of Western European and Japanese cars imported to Czechosloviaka 1955-1972 mainly. Note few important informations. - There is theoretical possibility to import any new car from Western Europe. - The prices' tag gone to sky for 1969, after military invasion on Czechoslovakia. - TK (tuzexova corona) - the strange coupon-money available after exchange western or US money only. Black market exchange rate was 1 TK = 5-6 Kčs The key of writing: the brand & model / years of availability in CS / price (in first year of availability) Renault 4CV / 1955-1961 / 22,000 Kčs. The first western car oficially available in postwar Czechoslovakia. Fiat 600 1957-1959 / 22,000 Kčs Simca Aronde DeLuxe 1957-mid 1960 / 31,000 Kčs Ford Anglia 1957-1958 / 28,500 Kčs Hillman Minx IIIA & IIIB 1959-1961 / 47,000 Kčs Fiat 600 D 1961-1970 / '61 - 22,000 Kčs; '68 - 31,000 Kčs / 7900 TK, '69 - 69,000 Kčs. Simca P60 Elysee Mid 1960-1963 / 45,000 Kčs Hillman Minx IIIC 1962-1963 / - Renault 8 1963-1971 / - Ford Consul Cortina 1963-1966 / Available in Standard and Deluxe form. Saab 93 1963-? - few hundred pieces imported. Simca 1300 1963-1966 / - Fiat 850 (Berlina & Coupe) Autumn 1966-1971 / '68 - 8500 TK, '70 - 69,000 Kčs Renault 16 1967-? / '74 (TL) - 91,000 Kčs Fiat 850 Special 1968-1971 / - Simca 1301/1501 1967-? / Price of 1301 LS in '68 - 57,000 Kčs, '69 - 123,000 Kčs, '71 1301 - 16,500 TK Ford Cortina 1300 1968-1970? / Price for '69 standard - 119,000 Kčs; '70 standard - 105,000 Kčs Saab 95 & 96 1968-1972 / sedan standard - 144,000 Kčs; sedan De Luxe - 149,000 Kčs, wagon - 163,000 KCS; for 1970: sedan standard - 125,000 Kčs. Fiat 500 1969-1972 / 49,000 Kčs, '72 - 7000 TK Toyota Corona 1500 L 1970-1972? / Price 110,000 Kčs; since autumn '70 - 79,000 Kčs. Exactly 402 cars sold, around one hundred served for national agencies and institutes. Citroen GS Autumn 1971-? / 16,900 TK Renault 6 TL 1971-1973? / 79,000 Kčs. Few months later price lowered 69,000 Kčs, since mid 1971 - 65,000 Kčs. Around 1300 cars sold. Renault 12 TL 1972-? / 15,900 TK Fiat 127 Autumn 1971-1982? / 11,300 TK, '73 - 12,650 TK, '74 - 59,000 Kčs, '78 - 81,400 Kčs (2-door). It was bestseller of Western European cars in CS through years. Fiat 128 1972-1974 / 13,950 TK, '74 - 69,000 Kčs Dismissed by cheaper Zastava 101/1100 in 1975 (59,000 Kčs) Chrysler 180 Autumn 1971-? / 20,500 TK, '74 - 24,500 TK Ford Cortina Mk III 1972-? / 18,500 TK, '76 - 84,000 Kčs Saab 99 1972-? / 24,200 TK, '74 - 30,000 TK Also... Austin Allegro 1975-? / 105,000 Kčs * * * Approximate numbers of Western cars imported in 1968: Fiat 850 - 1700 pcs Fiat 600 D - 1600 pcs Simca 1301/1501 - 1500 pcs Renault 8 - 1400 pcs Ford Cortina - 800 pcs Renault 16 - <200 pcs ...and 1969: Fiat 850 - 3300 pcs Fiat 600 D - 2500 pcs Simca 1301/1501 - 2400 pcs Renault 8 - 1500 pcs Ford Cortina - 500 pcs Saab 95/96 - 300 pcs Renault 16 - <300 pcs Numbers of imported cars registered in CS on December 31th 1966: Fiat 600 and 600 D - 9842 pcs Fiat 850 - 1108 pcs Renault 4 CV - 5199 pcs Simca Aronde and Elysee - 4392 pcs Simca 1300 and 1301 - 1670 pcs Ford Anglia - 1039 pcs Ford Consul Cortina - 4633 pcs Hillman Minx - 2068 pcs ...on December 31th 1971: Fiat 600 and 600 D - 17,228 pcs Fiat 850 - 16,298 pcs Fiat 128 - 3046 pcs Fiat 500 - 2026 pcs Fiat 125 - 1112 pcs Renault 8 - 8619 pcs Renault 16 - 1209 pcs Renault 6 - 902 pcs Simca 1300 to 1501 - 8639 pcs Ford Cortina - 7147 pcs Saab 95/96 - 1041 pcs Toyota Corona - 379 pcs * * * Quite large numbers of western cars for such small and communist market, especially if you compare to Poland. -- Last edit: 2022-04-16 20:44:33
blinski ◊ 2011-01-17 15:06	Are there any data of polish imports at the same time? It is quite interesting.
Weasel1984 ◊ 2011-01-17 15:41	In book of T. Szczerbicki are some. For example, to compare, between 1957 and mid 60's over a dozen thousands of Fiats 600's and Multiplas was imported here officially. Definitely in CS it was the most easy to buy new car in official way (everyone, COMECON made too), not to mention that western cars were available there for CS crowns, for entire commie period (if I'm not wrong) and here for "złoty" only to ca. mid-60's. Second thing is, that especially in 1970's, Pewex and POL-MOT offered some models only for a short time, year or two, and then replaced it by different car (for example Seat 850 - few thousands imported in the years 1972-~1974 or Vauhall Chevette, to buy perhaps only in 1976). Hard to understand this, but of course it couldn't result in big number of particular model. In CS some cars were offered for years. So indeed model which number we can count in CS in thousands, here was sometimes to meet in hundreds or dozens. In 1970's, not easy for western cars due to taxes, every year they had about 10-15% in new cars market in Poland (in the 80's had to be more IMO - by what I also remeber). But the most important was perhaps individual import, in case of many cars far bigger than official one. Extreme example are VW's - far more than 100.000 have been reg. since 60's to 80's, majority of them was imported individually. -- Last edit: 2011-04-09 22:54:40
Ingo ◊ 2011-01-17 16:16	In what years the private import of cars became possible in the different COMECON-countries? In the DDR it was late, in early 1990, not directly after The Wall felt down. So this specific car, "imported" to the DDR at the 10th Nov.1989, has a very interesting bureaucracy-history. Fortunately my friend Jens have kept all the papers and documents until today 1991: 2010: P.S. If anyone knows anything about K 70 in CS, I would be happy to know it. Actually nothing is known about the handful of cars, which went there. -- Last edit: 2011-01-17 16:18:27
Weasel1984 ◊ 2011-01-17 16:17	In Poland after some political changes in 1956, so since ca 1957.
Ingo ◊ 2011-01-17 16:20	Weasel1984 wrote In Poland after some political changes in 1956, so since ca 1957. So early! Without the need to contact the PEWEX or other state-owned companies?
Weasel1984 ◊ 2011-01-17 16:22	But first you had to get the passport. xD This became more easy in the 1970's and then in the 80's. Before 1970's number of privately imported cars was few thousnds per year. Later numbers I do not know, but had to be much more, especially since we started to go to work at the west. -- Last edit: 2011-01-17 16:51:34
sergej ◊ 2011-01-17 20:59	There were some very huge differences between PLR and CSSR. It is true, that lot of Western cars were available not only for hard currency, but for CS crowns too. But this was mostly in 60s and 70s (especially 1st half of 70s, the peak of western cars imports, both amounts and number of models available). In the 80s the economy of CSSR was very \\\\\\\"exhausted\\\\\\\" and so there was much less CS crowns released by the government to spend them for buying western goods. The amount of cars in Tuzex was +- the same, but in CS there were not so many people with access to hard currency, which was the bigest difference between CS and PLR. In 70s and 80s there was a lot of polish citizens selling western jeans, calculators, adidas boots, digital watch and so, of course not officially Also the trade with other COMECON countries diminished in 80s. For example the last Moskvitch was sold in 1980 (Aleko was sold in 1990-1993,after the fall of comunism), the last 125p in 1981, the last Wartburg and Trabant in 1985 (officially due to ecological reasons,the later ones seen on czech roads were imported from GDR after fall of the Wall in huge amounts) and the import of Lada/VAZ shrank to cca 1/2 compared to the 70s. But the import of Dacia increased a lot and Oltcit was sold in the 2nd half of 80s (our regime was very good friend with Ceausescu and was not so friendly to Gorbatchev in those days) and also 126 p was sold much more in the 2nd half of 80s. Domestic Skoda also increased the proportion on CS market compared to 60s and especially 70s. It was something like in Romania but of course in \\\\\\\"soft\\\\\\\" version
Weasel1984 ◊ 2011-01-17 21:24	If you had troubles in the 80's, it means we had a real disaster here back then. 1970's weren't bad, but 80's were tragic. Our society in the 80's was very divided. Indeed there were some really rich people (there always was quite large private sector), there were many people who traded everything they can - traveled to the west etc., but what is the the most important, there was majority, who worked of course in state owned sector, and among these people some were really poor. Poles back then indeed had even quite a lot of some western gadgets, also cars (this I remember), due to foreign travels, but surprisingly their number was not very related to general economic situation of the country, which became in the 80's a ruin. In final result - the day before economical transformation, Czechoslovakia, as country, was in far better condition than we did. -- Last edit: 2011-01-18 23:26:40
sergej ◊ 2011-01-17 21:40	Yes, you are right, CSSR was in far better condition economically, but it was not so visible, because in CSSR the regime was much more egalitarian. From the statistics I have read some time ago, there were twice private cars per capita as in PLR, but there was much less MBs, BMWs, Volvos etc. (with exception of Prague maybe). Also culturally Poland was more liberal and there was better possibility to travel abroad for polish citizens (but the situation in CSSR was not so bad as in GDR, lot of CS citizens travelled to YU in 70s and 80s).
blinski ◊ 2011-01-18 00:11	ingo wrote So early! Without the need to contact the PEWEX or other state-owned companies? Second-hand car trades, various kinds of western product fleamarkets and so on were officialy tollerated by regime - it can be seen in some movies and tv series from '60 and '70 as a part of everyday life (just like here: /vehicle_366645-FSO-Warszawa-M-20-M-20-1957.html ). You just have to know the specific of PRL regime. Apparatschiks usually didn't yearn for full control, didn't want to tighten up the system much. They just want to live their well-stated life (and if there was some ways to put some work out of their hands, just like providing western goods - well, that's good for them) and didn't want anybody to disturb them. If someone tried (like Solidarity) - oh, there the trouble come up.
Ingo ◊ 2011-01-19 19:07	These used-car-markets were half-legally even in the DDR with its strict regulations. At least one pic we have here: http://img6.imageshack.us/i/aa04a.jpg/ from /vehicle_247991-Opel-Rekord-P2-1961.html Were the prices of used cars in PL nd CS also so exorbitant high as in the DDR? An used Trabant was not to get for less than 20.000 DDR-Mark, a Lada 1600 min.35.000 DDR-Mark, a VW Bus [T3] always over 100.000 DDR-Mark Really cheap you only could get the Sapo's (ca.4000 DDR-Mark) and knackered Wartburg 311/312 (1500 DDR-Mark) Officially the rate DDR-Mark to DM was 1:1, on the black market rather 1:7 to 1:10 - but a average DDR-worker have earned roundabout 800 DDR-Mark in the 80ies, a retiree ca.300 DDR-Mark. Anyways, the most DDR-citizen had big amounts of DDR-Mark, because the daily life (food, rents etc. were extremely subsidized) was very cheap there. But any kind of technical and electronic-containing goods were extreme overpriced.
Weasel1984 ◊ 2011-01-19 19:21	What do you mean by used, really used ones or new/nearly new cars sold unofficially? The new 126p's were sometimes really expensive in not official sale. Normally you need to wait quite long in queue, as there was always not enough of them on domestic market (for "złoty"), so some people who had more easy to buy them, sold them soon with very high price. "Sappo", was to buy in Poland since 1973 and for some reasons wasn't so cheap here. It was more expensive than Syrena, 126p or Trabant, which was the cheapest car here. -- Last edit: 2011-01-19 19:31:49
Ingo ◊ 2011-01-19 19:39	Weasel1984 wrote If you had troubles in the 80's, it means we had a real disaster here back then. 1970's weren't bad, but 80's were tragic. The reading of my both "Manual for Poland and the Polish"-books (a fact book: Link to "www.christoph-links-verlag.de" , more humorous, but also instructive: http://www.steffen.pl/viva_polonia.php ) brought me back the remindings, that in the early 80ies there was a campaign in West Germany (forced mainly by the church, but also by the politics) "Your packet for Poland", where many thousands of humanitary parcels were sent to Poland. Similar, as it was common in the 50ies and 60ies (at least up to 1990) for the DDR. There also for humanitary reasons, but powered by political reasons. This occurence, at least the whole situation in Polnd in the early 80ies has effects until today. Many Polish people haven't forgotten the help of the West Germans, but also not the animosities, they had witnessed in the DDR back than. Many DDR-citizens have the Polish begrudged deeply (and some still don't like their neighbours) due their possibility to travel, a) to the West (one of the worst traumatas in the DDR ) and b) to the DDR for going shopping for all the strong subsidized goods there (food, children clothings, shoes etc.) P.S. I got also the "Manual for understanding the USA and the US-Americans" ( Link to "www.christoph-links-verlag.de" ) as a Christmas-present, and in both books were pointed one very common misbehaviour by Germans: to start a dialogue immediately with the facts and circumstances, where the concern is about. This is not well-liked in Poland and the USA (in other countries neither ). Always start with smalltalk before! And annother German discourtesy is, to point out clearly negative things. They have to be packed into polite semi-/pseudo-confirmations, in PL as in the USA. Fortunately there are no immigrants in my office (except one former Turkish girl), so I still can keep my straight diction. It saves so much time, to shortend all these boring and useless meetings, when you don't babble around and just say "I cannot imagine, when I've had to hear such an incredible bullshit before! You aren't serious with that, or? If yes, forget any involvement by me. Stick this idea somewhere, where it's always dark and don't bother me with that any more" ...or something like that. Try it and you will see, how many time and idiotic discussions you cn save with that. -- Last edit: 2011-01-19 19:49:56
Ingo ◊ 2011-01-19 19:41	Weasel1984 wrote What do you mean by used, really used ones or new/nearly new cars sold unofficially? Both. In the DDR both types had incredible high prices.
Ingo ◊ 2011-01-19 19:51	@dsl: there is also a book about the British and their pecularities Link to "www.christoph-links-verlag.de"
Sandie ◊ 2011-01-19 19:52	Love that title.
Ingo ◊ 2011-01-19 19:54	the sub-title means "An approximation to arbitrary relatives"
dsl ◊ 2011-01-19 20:54	ingo wrote @dsl: there is also a book about the British and their pecularities British or English ???
Ingo ◊ 2011-01-19 20:58	Sorry, English. I was not attentive. On page 140 there is the chapter "The Celtic neighbours" for Scots, Welsh, and Irish, followed by "Frogs and Huns", "Brothers Overseas" and "The rest of the world" -- Last edit: 2011-01-19 20:58:25
Weasel1984 ◊ 2011-01-20 00:08	ingo wrote "Your packet for Poland", where many thousands of humanitary parcels were sent to Poland. Similar, as it was common in the 50ies and 60ies (at least up to 1990) for the DDR. There also for humanitary reasons, but powered by political reasons. Yes, but it was more related with proscription of the political opposition (of the Solidarność) at the end of 1981. When many its members - "heads of families", went simply to jails or entire families started to be repressed (people lost work from day to day etc.). Even I remember this well as it was like that nearly for entire 1980's. In such moments also my parents got a lot of help from their Swedish friends and our family in Italy. -- Last edit: 2011-01-20 00:28:11
blinski ◊ 2011-01-20 21:20	ingo wrote The reading of my both "Manual for Poland and the Polish"-books (a fact book: Link to "www.christoph-links-verlag.de" , more humorous, but also instructive: http://www.steffen.pl/viva_polonia.php ) brought me back the remindings, that in the early 80ies there was a campaign in West Germany (forced mainly by the church, but also by the politics) "Your packet for Poland", where many thousands of humanitary parcels were sent to Poland. Similar, as it was common in the 50ies and 60ies (at least up to 1990) for the DDR. There also for humanitary reasons, but powered by political reasons. Yeah, I remember big cardboard boxes with names like huggies, bebiko, even q-tips which was used after as a containers for some stuff. When I was little i didn't remember it were help-packages from western countries, but when I was older I asked my parents of it - where did they get that amounts of stuff for me if Pewex could offer only in retail? They told me the story about standing before church in line and about some humiliations they receive when one priest wanted to see act of baptism (I'm not baptized) before he could hand out boxes.
Ingo ◊ 2011-11-11 12:38	Actually there is a movie in production, German-Polish cooperation, its plot is about the situation in Poland in the 80ies, especially about the first possibilities for Polish citizens to travel and work in Western countries. Some scenes were filmed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmstedt%E2%80%93Marienborn_border_crossing . The cars were contributed by some members of http://www.oldtimer-in-celle.de/
Weasel1984 ◊ 2011-11-13 18:15	Sorry, but knowing some German films about Poles, I'm afraid "German co-production" means we will be shown as some wild people from the jungle, who have seen electricity for the first time at the neon of the sex-shop in West Berlin (touch of the great west, higher neoculture with its ideologic freedom). Well, but it is our and only our "elites" fault, we agree for this type of historical "narration". -- Last edit: 2011-11-13 18:26:15
Ingo ◊ 2011-11-13 18:25	The director is a Polish lady, as my friend, whose fellows had contributed the cars told me. But I don't know more details for now. -- Last edit: 2011-11-13 18:26:53
Weasel1984 ◊ 2011-11-13 18:32	ingo wrote The director is a Polish lady. Sad you do not know her name (T. Orlowski? ) , but we will see. Ok, let's give her chance, I do not know from which side this person is. But it is very possible that people really responsible for the fact that in communist country live was, like it was, won't be mentioned in this film. Instead we will have "orgy" of dirt greyness and ordinary people, who look like idiots. It is more simple to film some steretotypes instead of show the most important processes at the top and politics responsible for them. -- Last edit: 2011-11-13 19:41:39
Ingo ◊ 2011-11-13 22:03	Well, what I've read about the Polish process of coming to terms with the past, it's said that many things aren't really worked off. That there's still a lot of dirt under the carpet... In Germany, expecially the former DDR, it was a big thing in the last 20 years (probably it was the only former COMECON-country, where there was at least a serious try to clear off). There are several films made about, the most known example is /movie_405094-Das-Leben-der-Anderen.html also /movie.php?id=908423 The opinion about the Polish people in Germany, you have mentioned in your second last posting, was rather typical for the DDR-citizens. The had more ressentiments. Partly caused by enviousness, for example about the better possibilities to travel to Western countries, partly provoked by the DDR-nomenklatura after 1980. The Solidarnosc was a shock and trauma for them. So the DDR-medias were full with stories about the worse personal living conditions over there. And the DDR-people were pissed, because since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_Poland they weren't allowed any more to travel to PL without a visa (which they mostly not get, when they requested it). But in the other direction, and further to the West, the border was open. Otherwise it's to admit, that also many West Germans hadn't a real good opinion about Poland back then. Caused mainly by the "homesickness-tourists", the former expatriated from Silesia, Ostpreußen, Danzig, etc. In the 70ies and 80ies many of them travelled back to the places of their personal history - and usally they were shocked nd angry about the terrible conditions of the old houses and places. As my grandmother, who visited here former home in Elbing/Elblag in 1978. She never came back after that and was still upset until her death in 2005. In 2003 I've been there by myself - and it was totally different. O.k., some of these older people had too many unrealistic thoughts in their mind, too much from their childhood in the 30ies. And not to forget their traumatas from the war and -even more- from the escape in early 1945. About the exceptional cineastic artist, you have mentioned: maybe you can contribute some pics here, as they could be interesting for our 80ies-fans ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teresa_Orlowski ) Or aren't there any cars to see? No idea, I've never seen one of her movies.
Weasel1984 ◊ 2011-11-14 20:36	Well, we have some pathologies, it is true – some people definitely should not be there, where they still are. Their activity in the past and during the economic transformation should be transparent for everyone, unfortunately it is not so obvious for everyone… Former DDR was in comfortable situation. Transformation via reunification, when in second part of the country - in Bonn - already existed strong, experienced and well prepared state administration makes a huge difference. But back to today films, these pseudo socially engaged or political ones – I have to say, for me, they generally became bad and conformist worldwide and it is not only our cinema problem. They always were politically oriented and rarely objective, but today are simply stupid. If we really have to talk about the WW2 experiences and traumas…. Your grandmother was angry? You can only imagine how shocked and angry were also my grandparents, when they wanted to return to home after the terrible war, but even couldn’t find it, as it simply disappeared together with the entire district in result of the planned destruction done meter by meter, house after house. And who in such case cared less about the neighbors architecture? On this occasion it is also worth to mention that our eastern border has been moved to the west as well - rather well known fact I hope so (before the WW2 it was much bigger country than is today), and huge number of people here also lost their homes, later they could only dream about traveling, exploring the world and visiting their childhood places, which now were abroad Believe or don’t I haven’t seen any film with Orlowski as well, but she is not in my type anyway. -- Last edit: 2011-11-14 23:25:53
Ingo ◊ 2011-11-17 23:08	Today former DDR-citizens doesn't appear in the public Germany in a visible way. A few in the East, bit nearly none in the West. Some in the politic world -the best known example is Mrs.Merkel- but not in the West. In the economy neither. Also cause by the fact, that all large companies as industrial concerns, trusts, banks, insurances, etc. stayed in the West. In the former DDR there are maximal mid-size companies. Especially in the politics the very most East Germans, which were active in the late 80ies, toppled later on by their snitcher-foretimes for the Stasi, the DDR-secret service. Also the revolutioneers had dark dots in their past... About the personal WWII-experiences, the discussion about the Nazi-foretimes of the parent-generation came suddenly up with the student-riots in 1968. In fact it was one of the reasons for that. Former Nazis, mainly from the Wehrmacht and the SS, had own associations (mainly hidden, because officially they were forbidden), but in the public they disappeared already in the early 60ies. They have noticed, that it's not too good for the own career, to show it too much... The organisations of the expatriates, the "Vertriebenen" were most visible. Originally meant for coming together and tell each other the own history and for meeting friends from the past again. Sure, a political background always existed. But during the years, the demands for getting back the former country, felt into te background - but often shouted out loud by far rightwing and reactionary representatives (Mrs.Steinbach is quiet and calm, compared to the former chairmen...). For many years the Vertriebenen were important for the conservative party, but nowadays, since the Cold War ended, noone really cares about them. The old, "real" expatriates are already dead, too. So in Germany the Steinbach-community is way less present than in the Polish medias. And no serious politican wants to stand too close to them. The fact, that after WWII Poland had a very different position, even location, than in the past, is/should be known by everyone, who has just a little interest in history and politics - but the far right usually extrudes that. Together with the reason, why all this had happened. Same with the fact, that the Polish people, who have settled in the former German areals in the East, were also refugees. But this was never a big them in the medias. In the Polish pre-1990 medias neither, to be precise. The lobbyists of the Vertriebenen have enforced in the past, that even the child-generation of the real expatriates belongs to them. It's enough, when just one parental unit was born in the old home country. So even me, born 25 years after WWII, because my father was born in 1942 in Elbing/Elblag. My wife, born in 1974, too, as her mother was born in 1945 on the escape from Breslau/Wroclaw somewhere on the way. We both even can require a refugee-document, as they say, even UN-approved... And we have the right to candidate in the Vertriebenen-organisations...

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