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1982 Volkswagen 1500 Class: Cars, Sedan — Model origin: 
— Built in: 
— Made for: 
![[*]](/res/star.png){kind=small}
Minor action vehicle or used in only a short scene
Comments about this vehicle| Author | Message |
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◊ 2011-11-08 18:32 |
Model origin UK becaue it started as an Avenger?? |
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◊ 2011-11-08 23:17 |
No, it's too far away from the original. |
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◊ 2011-11-08 23:27 |
Disagree. All mechanics were still UK, even the 1800 which was developed at Ryton but never used. Local changes were exterior trim and interior. But we have a mixture in our existing stock so need to decide one ruling and apply it across them all. |
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◊ 2011-11-09 00:03 |
Do you mean the "existing stock" of the South American Avenger-derivates? For those my suggestion is, that the first, still original looking MY are "original GB", but the later, where body and interior got the plenty of changes, are "original Argentina". We do similar with the Argentinian Peugeot 504, the Chinese and Brazilian VW Santanas and the Turkish Renault 12. |
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◊ 2011-11-09 00:09 |
In our plate-forum our DDR-cars- and Western-Cars-in-the-DDR-specialist is very happy right now. He had found this video again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foF5j4jMTI8&feature=related He is stil la big fan of this band. I also like that song since back then. Randomly recently it came in my mind, too - to be precise the line "on the back seat of a Vauxhall" For you there's a Mini included, a 1:58. At 2:38, is it an ERF? |
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◊ 2011-11-09 00:55 |
The 13 Avenger-based Volkswagen 1500 entries we have on imcdb. My view on origin is that soft bits (plastics, interior, exterior trim, names, brands, badges and so on) can change without affecting origin. If hard bits which require massive tooling and investment (oily bits, structural bodywork) change AND these changes are locally designed (not just unused projects from the original source) then changing origin may become appropriate. It's aways going to be a grey area where we sometimes have to make arbitrary choices and we're probably never goung to get real consistency, but for me these Avengers are just as British as the local Siam Di Tellas, or Innocentis, Paykans, and whatever else I could dredge up to make a list against yours. Changing plastic bits is not enough. |
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Gomselmash11 ◊ 2011-11-09 02:34 |
I can't agree with you, dsl. This model are restyled by VW. And used many parts from VW, dont forget this. For minor causes, other cars are changed the model origin, like this -> /vehicles_make-Iran+Khodro_model-Paykan.html http://imcdb.org/vehicles_make-Saipa_model-Z24.html And others with some changes or minor changes... like this -> /vehicle.php?id=390149 have other model origin. Why not this 1500? http://www.webcarstory.com/voiture.php?id=2872 http://www.webcarstory.com/voiture.php?id=5138 And just exists here, not in other countries. -- Last edit: 2011-11-09 02:49:45 |
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◊ 2011-11-09 12:58 |
"Always" is more appropriate than "sometimes" here. An agreement for any kind of guideline is impossible. We failed, every time, we tried it. And we did that uncountable many times. Arbitrariness is indeed the only possible way. Or: the loudest bawler is right. |
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◊ 2011-11-09 13:01 |
Maybe I should have bought the counterproof /vehicle.php?id=445012 .gif ";)") O.k., "proof" is not adequate for the informations, you find in that stuff... |
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◊ 2011-11-09 15:16 |
Two quick responses on details. [1] Gomsel's links to pictures of the VW 1500 very interesting for the detail of how some updated features are clearly local, but others continued to trickle through from UK. The dashboard moulding is exactly like the new 1977+ UK revision when Avenger rebadged as Chrysler. The only point I'm making is that many changes continued to be UK-influenced, not locally executed in isolation. [2] Paykan example is more subtle than I had realised. We have the earlier Irannational Paykan (mostly entered as origin UK), and then the Iran Khodro Paykan after about 1979 (local origin). Not much external difference - mild trim updates which still seem to use UK-like components in refreshed appearance which was not used in UK. But apart from the name change the other difference - if the date is right - is that later Paykans adopted Peugeot engines which was never a UK feature. So whether by accident or deliberately, we may have created one threshold for how we regard changing origins. It's clear we won't solve the bigger issue here, but these might be useful examples if we ever do try to decide firm guidelines. But as a small point, all these Avenger-based VW 1500s should have one consistent definition of origin - whichever way it goes - instead of the current mixture. -- Last edit: 2011-11-09 16:56:01 |
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◊ 2011-11-09 20:12 |
The Volkswagen-versions should be all origin Argentina, I suggest. The older Dodge-versions we -resp.an expert for Rootes-cars - should check, how big the differences are. |
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◊ 2011-11-09 20:58 |
Thanks for the comment, and I'm not meaning to be grumpy but I think the differences between the Dodge and the VW are probably smaller than between Dodge and Hillman. So I can't see a reason which seperates the VW away from the Dodge - all 3 versions only differ superficially in my eyes, well below the threshold for creating a new origin. But while I may have the knowledge to make that statement, it needs someone unbiased to make the judgement(s). |
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◊ 2011-11-09 21:06 |
a) there are none of those specimen spooking around here and if nevertheless b) they are clueless So our own prejudices and blockheadedness would be most substantial and profound to assess the real truth  -- Last edit: 2011-11-09 21:07:21 |
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◊ 2011-11-10 00:26 |
OK then - a blockhead speaks. All South American Avenger derivatives (Brazil, Argentina, Dodge, Volkswagen etc) should be origin UK as none of the local adaptations and evolutions are sufficient to change the character of the cars to a significant extent. |
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◊ 2011-11-10 00:38 |
^ I agree dsl but I think that can be said on a lot of the cars on this site though  |
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◊ 2011-11-10 00:55 |
@tonkatracker - thanks. (Whispers - I've got a secret argument in reserve - if I lose this one, then Mexican VW Beetles should lose their German origin too. That could be an interesting discussion .... but don't tell anyone else yet.) |
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◊ 2011-11-10 02:38 |
(Whispers - You may be correct when they started their own design after 1978 German made ceased to exist, don't tell anyone either. Shh...) |
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◊ 2011-11-10 18:32 |
@dsl, rljuna2: better the Brazilian ones.  It's just satisfying, that -after some discussions, not automatically- these have lost the incorrect "origin D"-badge : /vehicles_make-Volkswagen_model-Typ+2.html and these: /vehicles.php?make=volkswagen&model=citi+golf |
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◊ 2011-11-10 18:35 |
If we continue to use dsl's logic, this has to loose the "origin GB"-badge: /vehicles_make-Bristol_model-401.html -- Last edit: 2011-11-10 18:41:04 |
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◊ 2011-11-10 19:35 |
We would need to think about examples like this (and another case I had in mind /vehicles.php?make=Innocenti&model=950+S&modelMatch=1&modelInclModel=on ) where the car was never made in this form in the country of origin of all the oily bits. The differences are the body is entirely locally designed and manufactured by a seperate company in its new country. However we would also need to think about how to deal with /vehicles.php?make=Ford&model=Anglia+Torino&modelMatch=1&modelInclModel=on where the body is entirely locally designed and manufactured in its new country, but within the same company and using imported oily bits - I can see a difference. |
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