Advertising Last completed movie pages 1963 Volvo 1800 S Ep. 12.09Class: Cars, Coupé — Model origin: 
— Built in: 
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◊ 2023-04-17 21:36 |
P1800 |
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◊ 2023-04-17 23:51 |
Early hockey stick side trim, but B18 rear badge?? |
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◊ 2023-04-22 13:34 |
The badge shown is not a B18 badge, which looked like https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Volvo_B18_grille_Badge.jpg . That would have been unnecessary as all of them but the very last years had the B18 engine. The last years had the enlarged B20 engine. Instead it's a 1963+ badge used to indicate that the assembly had moved to Sweden. By then it wasn't called P1800 any more, but 1800 S http://www.volvotips.com/index.php/p1800/history-1800/ , and the badge looked like the second picture at Link to "www.v1800.org" . MY 1965 got the new rims shown above with better ventilation and a straight rear bumper. I'd say this is a 1963 or 1964 Volvo 1800 S with 1965+ wheels. Body stamped at Linwood, Scotland, assembled at Gothenburg, Sweden. -- Last edit: 2023-04-22 13:34:49 |
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◊ 2023-04-23 23:32 |
Looks like a cherished number (ABC 1 or ABC12 format) so undateable. We have several 1800 S listed as UK made and several not - which way do we want to go?? (Probably a block update task either way). |
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◊ 2023-04-24 10:37 |
What does "Built in the UK" mean? Only MY 1961 and 1962 assembled by Jensen, after that the production moved to Sweden. Bodies stamped at Linwood until 1968, after that the stamping took place in Sweden (Olofström or Gothenburg?). Many components were sourced from British suppliers, like the SU carburettors (the E had Bosch fuel injection), Hardy Spicer prop shafts, Smiths gauges, Girling brakes and Imperial measurements. Is that enough to qualify for "built in the UK"? |
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◊ 2023-04-24 13:45 |
I'm tempted to say yes, not so much for calculating the individual elements of who screwed what bits of the 1800 S together and where, but more because we acknowledge overseas builds of many things which arrive nearly fully built in crates and have a much lower degree of local finishing. |
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◊ 2023-04-25 08:28 |
Please name some examples with "...a much lower degree of local finishing". If only labelled "Built in the UK", that might be almost entirely true for early examples, but as the years passed that became less and less true. How about "Built in the UK" and "Built in Sweden"? -- Last edit: 2023-04-25 08:30:26 |
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◊ 2023-04-25 13:32 |
That's probably a PhD thesis to pin down bulletproof examples. But some candidates off the top of my head to mull over: - most of the Irish car industry pre-and post-WW2 - ignore the big UK names (Austin, Hillman, Ford) and look at the weird brands built in penny numbers, plus non-UK Fords etc - early-50s Hindustani builds of 50s Morrises (Minor, Oxford) before they sent the full tooling over from UK - possibly one for your speciality - Scandinavian builds of EOTTA Zephyrs? - early Danish builds of DOMI Minors - Cortinas round the world - see this list. Many were full build factories, but some of them are too weird to be much more than screwing together bits from crates - the whole arena of early Brit stuff going to eg Aus, NZ, ZA, Malta etc where initial assembly occurred before proper factories were built - some stuff being shipped between Aus-NZ-ZA from a single production site - particularly in the 70s, UK brands, Holdens, non-UK Fords etc Probable elements in many situations were local regulations stipulating a %age value of the car had to be local build to avoid tariffs/import duties etc. So local components often used for wheels, tyres, glass, lights, electrics, suspension, batteries, seats, small oily bits etc, maybe air-con added in hot countries. Plus the consideration that there was no point in shipping fully built something from UK with UK tyres (or whatever), if that brand/size was not widely available locally for wear and tear replacement. And many oily bits had to be adjusted for instance to accommodate different qualities of local fuel. Too huge a topic to do more than scratch the surface here - other big chunks would be US stuff to wherever round the world for local finishing, other big European makes, the whole world of commercial stuff (buses and trucks) sent out part-built for local finishing, ditto the huge list of Land Rover assembly countries. But to return to this starting point, my hunch is that the 1800 S should be listed as UK build, but it's not a big die-in-the-ditch concern for me either way. -- Last edit: 2023-04-25 15:03:19 |
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◊ 2023-04-26 11:01 |
I'm sorry! I didn't realize you meant CKD (= Completely Knocked Down) production. My discussion will concern Ford, not because it was the only one using CKD, but because it was probably the first car company that spanned the world with plants. In my possession is a book published in 1931 to celebrate the newly built Ford plant at Stockholm free port, at which assembly took place until 1956. Possibly for your interest it also lists all the Ford plants in Europe (apart from the already mentioned one at Stockholm): Antwerp (Belgium), Asnieres-Paris (France), Barcelona (Spain), Berlin (Germany), Cork (Ireland), Helsinki (Finland), Cologne (not yet finished, Germany), Copenhagen (Denmark), Manchester (England), Rotterdam (Netherlands) and Trieste (Italy). It also said that the biggest Ford plant in Britain was the one in East Windsor (Ontario), Canada, with a yearly production of about 150.000 units, but that would soon be outnumbered by the one planned at Dagenham (England) with an estimated production of about 200.000 units. I've been thinking why CKD production arose in the first place. It was not always because a certain %-age had to be locally built. Perhaps the subcontractors could build more parts than the assembly plant, perhaps it was more cost efficient to ship parts closely packed in crates as a finished car had loads of air around it and was probably accident prone during the shipping, or perhaps the wages at the Ford plant at River Rouge was considerably higher than elsewhere. One can probably count the first years of P1800 assembly at the Jensen plant at West Bromwich as CKD. But not after 1963 when the production moved to the Volvo main plant at Gothenburg. Don't forget that there were plenty of parts made in Sweden as well, like the engine (probably by Penta), gearbox (Köping) (apart from the overdrive made by Laycock de Normanville, (Birmingham?)), rear axle, wheels, springs (Lesjöfors) and nuts and bolts (Bulten, Hallstahammar). -- Last edit: 2023-04-26 11:06:54 |
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◊ 2023-04-26 13:01 |
I wasn't trying to be specific (eg CKD vs non-CKD) - more the ebb and flow of arrangements which we today can't really do anything but glimpse from afar, and probably in many cases were fluid - one scenario evolving into another a few years later. We tend to assign Built-Ins fairly liberally because they're often interesting quirks of history, sometimes not readily apparent from obvious sources , which builds up the status of the database as an authoritative reference for details which may be missed elsewhere. And as a collective of nerdy pointy-heads, we enjoy pinning down these quirks as much as we can. Long may it continue in this way. Interesting list of 1931 Ford plants - I'll quote in that Ford forum thread with the Cortina list. A bit puzzled by "the biggest Ford plant in Britain was the one in East Windsor (Ontario), Canada" - typo or saying something too subtle for me to decipher?? Laycock de Normanville overdrives seem to have been made by Laycock in Sheffield - a big steelworks, now long gone |
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◊ 2023-04-26 16:13 |
"Interesting list of 1931 Ford plants - I'll quote in that Ford forum thread with the Cortina list. A bit puzzled by "the biggest Ford plant in Britain was the one in East Windsor (Ontario), Canada" - typo or saying something too subtle for me to decipher??" If written in the early thirties perhaps the expression used was" the British Empire", which could have suffered from being translated to and from the language of Zodiac's book. That period in the history of Ford is full of such things, you may be aware of the the UK Ford management putting in a lot of effort to part the company from Ford USA, saying inter alia that they knew more about European conditions. However the Dagenham works still produced the big American designs to begin with. (AA Truck I think) That said, the Model Y was designed by Dearborn, although slight modifications were necessary they made a pretty good job of Ford's first "baby" car, certainly from the resultant sales performance. -- Last edit: 2023-04-26 16:17:35 |
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◊ 2023-04-26 16:20 |
i think it might have some connection to this https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/statute-of-westminster but there is too much political blah blah for me .. globally it was the last step for Canada to be completely independent from Britain , signed in december 1931 ( the list might have be written before they signed that ) Excuse the interruption, but I was quoting from dsl, so it is his work. jfs sorry, i thought you quoted from a book , newspaper or whatever can be quoted.. -- Last edit: 2023-04-26 16:39:03 |
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◊ 2023-04-26 18:29 |
I was probably a tad vague, what I meant with Britain was indeed the British Empire before the British Commonwealth was formed. Otherwise it is a fact that the 1800 was assembled in Sweden from 1963. I don't like the "Swedish origin, built in the UK" flags. It doesn't reflect the truth. Part of the truth, Yes. But not the whole truth. Shall I continue to source the subcontractors? -- Last edit: 2023-04-26 18:29:55 |
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◊ 2023-04-30 12:34 |
As you haven't changed it, I believe it is. It is for me as well, and to make you understand why I'd like you to understand why Volvo moved the assembly to Sweden. When Volvo decided to build the P1800 in greater numbers, they didn't have enough capacity in Sweden, so they had to find other sources for both the stamping process and the assembly. Pressed steel had a reputation of taking on various side projects, and so did Jensen. However, the stamping process became a shamble because of various reasons, and the assembly process at Jensen became even worse as they apparently bade that low, as they were on the brink of bankruptcy, even a small delay became disastrous. Don't misunderstand me, I have the greatest respect for Jensen as a manufacturer of sports cars in small numbers. However bigger numbers means bigger problems, which they didn't manage. Because of the failings in both the stamping and the assembly processes, the guarantee undertakings for the P1800 became immense. Amongst them was a reputation of leakage. Please at least add a "Built in Sweden" flag for cars built 1963 onwards. From 1969 also the stamping process took place in Sweden. |
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◊ 2023-04-30 13:22 |
As I wrote earlier I have my preference in one direction and you have yours in the other. I'm not resisting if we go for yours, but the bigger point is that we should apply consistently across all 1800 S, so if you want to make a forum request to Sir Admin for a block update, that seems best way forward instead of picking each one off individually. I think we have solid consensus that previous P1800 deserves made in UK, and successor 1800E and ES were completely Swedish builds, so this only applies to 1800 S. |
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◊ 2023-04-30 14:39 |
I don't belong to the admins and I'm not a member of the forum. I'm not a programmer so I don't know what a "block update" means, hence to request that is way out of my comfort zone. |
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◊ 2023-04-30 15:17 |
no need to be admin for that, its Link to "imcdb.opencommunity.be" on the forum where mass change ( block update ) can be asked instead of changing them all one by one , antp does such a change |
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