Comments about this vehicle

Author	Message
antp ◊ 2007-10-03 09:59	After the 911, the Biturbo, now an A610, what's next? -- Last edit: 2007-11-27 12:12:23
twingoman ◊ 2007-10-08 16:02	Can't believe this got destroyed. I'd be interested to hear the reason as I thought Clarkson was a fan of this car. Edit: Yes, he is/was a fan - it was at no 88 of his Top 100 cars only six years ago. -- Last edit: 2007-10-08 16:05:30
Neptune ◊ 2007-10-08 16:07	Why do they destroy these cars?, some of them are well liked, at least that’s the impression I get.
antp ◊ 2007-10-08 17:41	Yes, these are good cars, and quite rare (only drawback is that they were Renault sold at the price of a Porsche)
CarChasesFanatic ◊ 2007-10-08 17:49	I like them, they are nice cars, and nowadays they have become very rare.
antp ◊ 2007-10-08 18:14	With 818 cars produced, it was already rare at the end of the production. -- Last edit: 2007-10-08 18:14:52
CarChasesFanatic ◊ 2007-10-08 18:16	less than one thousand i didnt know that, yes having one was already a prvilege
antp ◊ 2007-10-08 18:30	Well it was probably not "difficult" to get one back then: they did sell few because of the price, not because of any limited production system like some other luxury cars. -- Last edit: 2007-10-08 18:30:18
G-MANN ◊ 2007-10-08 18:31	Even if they are rare, are they actually worth anything now?
CarChasesFanatic ◊ 2007-10-08 18:41	I think they should be
Weasel1984 ◊ 2007-10-08 18:47	I thought that Clarkson had been one of these journalists which publicly criticised the discontinuation of A610 production. Well If he really was, seems he drastically changes opinion not for the first time.
dudley ◊ 2007-10-08 19:12	This one is an L-reg. One of the last, I'd say. I'm sure there were fewer than 50 RHDs made.
Star Wars Fanatic ◊ 2007-10-08 19:15	People already being up in arms over Clarkson's latest choice of destructive offerings is probably exactly what he wants
G-MANN ◊ 2007-10-09 13:22	I don't care what he wrecks. He's got enough sense and taste to not wreck anything truly valuable.
CarChasesFanatic ◊ 2007-10-09 13:29	I complete disagree with that comment, or is it a sarcasm? have a look at this for example... /vehicle_33744-Maserati-Biturbo.html
antp ◊ 2007-10-09 16:39	The Biturbo is not especially valuable: they made "lots" of them and many are in really bad shape. The Alpine is quite rare and I doubt that you find many in so bad shape as the Biturbo.
G-MANN ◊ 2007-10-13 19:03	Just because it wore a Maserati badge doesn't necessarily mean it was a great car. Clarkson obviously considered it an affront to the classic Maseratis. -- Last edit: 2007-10-13 19:07:00
Kowalski ◊ 2007-10-15 20:46	carchasesfanatic wrote I complete disagree with that comment, or is it a sarcasm? have a look at this for example... /vehicle_33744-Maserati-Biturbo.html Maseratis are supposed to look sleek and sexy, they have to be fast and fun and they have to be beautifully made. The Maserati Biturbo didn't deliver any of these things and symbolized a dark era for Maserati which Maserati most definitely wants to forget. Jeremy Clarkson was more than right when he said the Biturbo is an affront to what a proper Maserati should be, therefore it deserved to be destroyed.
antp ◊ 2007-10-15 22:46	I like the look of the Biturbo (more than other Maserati ... I know, I like squared cars)
G-MANN ◊ 2007-10-16 00:53	By the way what does this mean?
CarChasesFanatic ◊ 2007-10-16 01:12	I see we'll have to explain it again
G-MANN ◊ 2007-10-16 01:15	I'm sorry, I've forgotten. But maybe some people use smileys to express different things, but I think antp has logged off for the night. Is it like a sigh, meaning "I'm slightly annoyed"? -- Last edit: 2007-10-16 01:16:33
CarChasesFanatic ◊ 2007-10-16 01:24	Dont worry i didnt mean you were being dull i just wanted to joke using it again , well, for me it simply means like "im saying something", i dont know how to really explain it to you, depending to what you say it with it can for example mean that you are starting to be repetitive, like G-MANN not that discussion again please You can also use it when someone is saying something against a thing you like, which is the case here right? I look the way of the biturbo Antoine says, and uses the smiley like saying well i like it huh! I suposse that its meaning can change a bit depending what you wanna mean by the sentence you are saying. Understand it G-MANN or do i have to explain it again ?
antp ◊ 2007-10-16 23:04	It is indeed a multi-purpose smiley ()
G-MANN ◊ 2007-10-16 23:22	antp, is the Biturbo really your favourite Maserati? Are you serious? What about the Merak or the Bora or Ghibli or even any of the new ones? The Biturbo looks so cheap and dated, it looks too much like an ordinary 80s European coupe or sedan. I think Kowalski is right. -- Last edit: 2007-10-16 23:36:57
antp ◊ 2007-10-16 23:54	For most of the people 80s cars look cheap/dated because these are the cheap and dated cars that were seen in the streets (or are still seen). I guess that it was the same for the 70s cars 10-20 years ago. And it will be the same for current cars within 20 years. I usually like 70s-80s cars. I like the Biturbo style, like many other cars with that "blocky" style and/or quad square headlights (Audi Quattro, VW Scirocco 2, etc.) Bora, Merak and Ghibli are nice, yes, but I prefer the Biturbo (or the Ghibli of the 90s, the one derivated from the Biturbo ) I do not especially like the current ones (but do not dislike these either - they are nice but I do not find anything special in these).
G-MANN ◊ 2007-10-17 00:41	Yes some people think 80s car look crap because most of the ones left on the road now are old bangers, so they associate 80s cars with being poor, but I can see past this, I just don't think the 80s was the best decade for car design in general (and I don't think I'm alone). And the over-plasicky interior designs carried over into the early 90s, I always felt my '91 Clio looked very dated inside, especially the steering wheel. For example I don't think the Rolls-Royce Silver Spirit is as handsome as the Silver Shadow. And the Jaguar XJ40 isn't as good-looking as the XJ Series II and III, IMHO. Now the Audi Quattro you mention is still a fine car, but you can't associate the Biturbo with it because it has also has an angular look, the early 80s Quattro is much more influential, landmark car, from what I understand the Biturbo was part of an era that was a blot on the landscape of Maserati's history. -- Last edit: 2007-10-17 00:50:26
G-MANN ◊ 2007-10-17 00:58	If your favourite cars are the more angular ones of the 70s and 80s, then you must really like the 80s Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham (I like those kind of Cadillacs myself)
antp ◊ 2007-10-17 10:19	Actually I find the 80s Cadillac really too like a "big blocky thing" I prefer those of end of 80s/early 90s.
antp ◊ 2007-11-02 00:36	Found in comments on Amazon: Quote The production company bought an extremly rare Alpine Renault A610 Turbo to use in this video. The A610 Turbo was built between 1992 and 1994 and only about 70 of this model were made in right hand drive. The example they bought was a trophy winning low mileage beauty in the most sought after colour. It is a fabulous driver's car. I was lucky enough to own one. The car was driven into a concrete wall for the DVD. Any less scare car or a shoddier example could have done the job. This is willful destruction of something rare and unreplaceable. I see no entertainment in this. I find it highly offensive. IF YOU ARE A GENUINE CAR ENTHUSIAST PLEASE BOYCOTT THIS GARBAGE!
G-MANN ◊ 2007-11-02 00:44	antp wrote only drawback is that they were Renault sold at the price of a Porsche So that's why it didn't sell! Now I understand. Was the destruction of this car a "hate killing" (like the Nissan Sunny and the Yugo) or some kind of test?
antp ◊ 2007-11-02 00:46	As nobody here as seen the full "movie" I suppose that nobody knows the reason yet. -- Last edit: 2007-11-02 00:47:28
CarChasesFanatic ◊ 2007-11-02 00:50	It is still in production though, i remeber reading somewhere that they probably were doing a new Phaeton to be a competitor of the SL but i dont know if its true or not.
CarChasesFanatic ◊ 2007-11-02 00:50	Great Antoine you have edited your comment now mine doesnt fit
antp ◊ 2007-11-02 00:51	Because I misread G-MANN's comment Well you can delete yours and this one then
CarChasesFanatic ◊ 2007-11-02 00:53	well you were sayign about the Phaeton not being a succes so i responded to that, that is, now it fits
G-MANN ◊ 2007-11-02 01:14	The Phaeton has not been very successful because who in the right mind would spend Merc S-Class money on a Volkswagen which on the outside looks like a larger version of the Passat (an average family car)? Didn't everyone see that coming? The Phaeton is supposed to be a very well engineered car, but it doesn't have the image of the other luxury cars, that's what counts. Former German Chancellor Gerhard Schroder only chose a Phaeton for patriotic reasons (he's from the region where they make VWs). -- Last edit: 2007-11-02 01:15:25
Bravada ◊ 2007-11-02 02:14	I would - Phaeton is much better looking than most of the vehicles in the price range (it is really surprising that although it is hard to build a large car that is not good looking so many automakers have been succeeding at it recently), has an ultra-nice interior and is a much less common sight than the S-Klasse, which got vulgar (aside from getting inexplicably ugly on the outside and 1980s-American-car messy on the inside).
G-MANN ◊ 2007-11-02 02:19	Well it seems most people prefer to go with the more established S-Class, 7-Series, A8 and XJ8. These cars cost serious money, unless you can afford lots of cars, you want to get something that looks right. If I was in a position where I was going to buy one big luxury car (and I'm a long way from that stage), I don't think I'd go for the Phaeton, personally I'd have the S-Class (although I haven't gotten used to the new one yet) or XJ8 (or even the XJR). That's why you don't see too many Maserati Quattroportes (not in Britain, anyway), it's too daring for most buyers. -- Last edit: 2007-11-02 02:21:56
Bravada ◊ 2007-11-02 02:54	The fact that most affluent people are unimaginative bores doesn't mean you have to be one
antp ◊ 2007-11-02 17:42	G-MANN wrote The Phaeton has not been very successful because who in the right mind would spend Merc S-Class money on a Volkswagen That's why I mentioned it: the Alpine was a Renault at the price of a Porsche
twingoman ◊ 2007-11-08 14:21	G-MANN wrote So that's why it didn't sell! Now I understand. Was the destruction of this car a "hate killing" (like the Nissan Sunny and the Yugo) or some kind of test? Having now seen bits of the programme (although I am unable to get any better pictures just yet), it does appear to be a hate killing. Apparently, they paid £8250 for this particular car, the steering lock was engaging as he was driving it, so he could only go right, and it looked like it wouldn't go into reverse gear. However, judging by the Amazon commnent above, these things may have been "broken" for the programme.
CarChasesFanatic ◊ 2007-11-08 14:32	Yes wether that or that the last owner had it abandoned in a garage, he sometimes takes the chance to say oh this is broken this is broken too this makes it a crap car, well, before you have to see what happened to that to be in that condition.
twingoman ◊ 2007-11-08 14:35	Well, I've just found this: http://www.clubalpinerenault.org.uk/classifieds_sale.asp (fourth advert down) The reg of Clarkson's car was L652MDP, and the last three letters of this car for sale look like MDP. Possibly the same car...
CarChasesFanatic ◊ 2007-11-08 14:37	The advert states it is in good condition
dudley ◊ 2007-11-08 14:41	The vehicle details for L652 MDP are: Date of Liability 01 01 2008 Date of First Registration 13 01 1994 Year of Manufacture 1994 Cylinder Capacity (cc) 2975CC No clues from the DVLA. £8250 sounds like a lot for one of these; maybe it is L652 MDP. Shame.
G-MANN ◊ 2007-11-27 13:47	Here's the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzRu72lXi8E I can really see the French and Belgian members of this site getting angry at some of Clarkson's xenophobic comments just ignore them. Basic rule with Clarkson: don't take anything he says too seriously. I think he may have gone a little too bit too far this time wantonly destroying that car (rarer than an old Porsche 911 or Corvette), but I won't be losing any sleep over it, and I'll still keep watching Top Gear. I think all the Mary Whitehouse types who have written into the BBC complaining about him over the years have no sense of humour and should be ignored. Although if you are quite ambivalent about Clarkson and are starting to find him a bit idiotic, I wouldn't recommend watching this video, it might make you hate him. I, on the other hand, still have time for Clarkson, the day he becomes a Tory MP, that's what it will take for me to stop watching him.
twingoman ◊ 2007-11-27 14:05	The engine for this car (and various other useable parts) were for sale on Ebay a couple of weeks ago. Not sure how the seller got hold of the car (unless they are connected in some way), but apparently the seats are in her sons Mini!
CarChasesFanatic ◊ 2007-11-27 14:22	G-MANN wrote That you say G-MANN is true, i too find him annoying sometimes for the things he say but the programs and DVD's he makes arent bad at all, and im not gonna stop watching them just because he says certain things, i watched the part of Spain of that program he made going along Europe and i liked it, it was serious and not offending anyone if i remember well, the only thing is that he says anything he thinks wether it is bad or not and he can actually, that's why he has a TV programn and he's so famous now
antp ◊ 2007-11-27 14:26	G-MANN wrote I can really see the French and Belgian members of this site getting angry at some of Clarkson's xenophobic comments Belgian usually make fun of French people and vice-versa, so we do not identify much to Frenchs The part with the G-Wiz was quite hilarious though.
G-MANN ◊ 2007-11-27 14:40	Although you do like French cars a lot, so I thought you might not have liked it when Clarkson said that the French can't make supercars and made fun of the Citroen C6.
CarChasesFanatic ◊ 2007-11-27 14:41	Oh well they can be annoying opinions, but only that, opinions...
antp ◊ 2007-11-27 14:41	How could I deny that they can't make supercars? As there aren't any Well, maybe the Venturi, I do not know, but they are not anymore anyway. I do not think that the A610 was supposed to be one, though. It was rather in the sportscar category, with Porsche 911 and others. Even in Belgium we have supercars! The Gillet Vertigo. It has (had?) the record of 0-60 mph for regular production cars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gillet -- Last edit: 2007-11-27 14:44:46
twingoman ◊ 2007-11-27 14:45	antp wrote How could I deny that they can't make supercars? As there aren't any Well, maybe the Venturi, He said that the Venturi was rubbish as well.
Star Wars Fanatic ◊ 2007-11-27 17:51	Even I'm a bit surprised at this car being destroyed, for the simple fact it was featured, albeit briefly and in a low position, in his Top 100 Cars DVD back in 2001. Regardless, the destruction in this one was tasty indeed.
lastinpurple ◊ 2007-11-28 21:10	I felt really offended when Clarkson destroyed this, I like all the Alpines, and it's not a supercar Mr. Clarkson, it's a sports car. In his 100 cars he described this as: Plastic - Fantastic, and now he dislikes it, he's got a mind easy to change. Over all, I think this is one of Clarkson's best destruction acts to date -- Last edit: 2007-11-28 21:10:20
G-MANN ◊ 2007-11-28 21:12	Don't you mean worst?
crazyforcars12 ◊ 2007-12-02 12:57	I wonder how the previous owner feels about this
lastinpurple ◊ 2007-12-04 19:45	I'm wondering it all the time. Do the previous owners of the cars know that Clarkson destroyed them? And how do they feel after watching him laughing at their cars and smashing it?
crazyforcars12 ◊ 2007-12-04 19:54	That Rover in last weeks Top Gear had apparently been restored, that must of upset the owner a little, after all that hard work. Actually, if you watched it, you would of seen that he didn't work that hard, if that door really wasn't scripted.
crazyforcars12 ◊ 2007-12-04 19:56	This car, according to twingomans link, was a show winner. What a waste
TheHeartbreakKid15 ◊ 2007-12-24 04:42	What actually happens to it?
antp ◊ 2007-12-24 13:01	How it is presented in the video: Clarkson bought the car, but it has a problem with steering which sometimes blocks (quite dangerous). Then while driving it at a time it blocks, and the car goes right into the concrete block. The Clarkson exists from the car. I guess that it was not an "accident" like how they showed it, and that Clarkson was not driving the car which crashed. But I suppose that the steering locking thing was true, and was the reason of destroying it?
CarChasesFanatic ◊ 2007-12-24 13:13	Of course it was not an accident, and of course Clarkson wasnt inside of it!!
antp ◊ 2007-12-24 13:14	"unfortunately Clarkson wasn't inside", you mean?
CarChasesFanatic ◊ 2007-12-24 13:16	......................................................yes
Sunbar ◊ 2007-12-24 13:20	Clarkson admitted in a recent talk-show on TV (publicising his DVD release) that this was was a staged accident. He appeared to be saying that in between the more normal road-test pieces they like to regularly include some more light-hearted spectacular stunts. Anyone seeing the clip would probably realise it was completely false and not a real accident.
CarChasesFanatic ◊ 2007-12-24 13:33	But guys you surprise me, do you really need him to afirm it? it was clearly staged... dont see how can you doubt
Sunbar ◊ 2007-12-24 14:12	Clarkson and the production company achieved what they wanted..... Loads of free publicity. Crashes can be spectacular and this one was purely for entertainment reasons. No serious point was being made about there being a fault with the car they needed a 'reason' for the crash. To make it interesting it had to be a high performance, or better still a believable super-car, that they could readily buy. The Renault was one that was available at the right price, and there was probably no specific reason to choose that car rather than any other. The cost of destroying one car was worth it for all the publicity. -- Last edit: 2007-12-24 14:13:35
antp ◊ 2007-12-24 16:52	My "I guess" was probably not the good word. It was obvious indeed.
twingoman ◊ 2007-12-24 19:23	I'd read somewhere that it was driven by remote control into the concrete block, and it was something to do with the mechanics of the remote control that was causing the steering lock to come on.
CarChasesFanatic ◊ 2007-12-25 12:58	Why cant it be here? what i'd put is a new category like "TV Program/Programme" for these kind of shows which (at least from the spanish point of view) it is not a TV series, but about listing it i dont see any problem
Bravada ◊ 2007-12-25 14:38	I don't find listing of vehicles featured on car shows as that fun, actually. For the most part, they are introduced by their name, and listing them is of little value to the potential viewer. But that's just my opinion. There are still so many films, shows and series missing...
garco ◊ 2007-12-25 14:52	I have never take a look at the Top Gear etc. pages here, it has also not my interest.
antp ◊ 2007-12-25 18:43	twingoman wrote I'd read somewhere that it was driven by remote control into the concrete block, and it was something to do with the mechanics of the remote control that was causing the steering lock to come on. Why remote control it if you do not plan to crash it? wasserspeier wrote Every country has at least 10 of these shows on TV. Mabye it's time to delete shows like this from IMCDB. Many people were asking for Topgear stuff. It was included because it is probably one of the most famous one and presented like more than just a car-testing show. On the other hand, the shows like Motorweek, Fifth Gear, etc. have less interest to be on the site. Anyway these Clarkson videos are not a TV show nor a car-testing thing, as these are released on DVDs. I do not like to lists bikes or army tanks, some people do not like listing video clips, some others do not like to list any background car at all, some do not like to list ugly cars, etc. Bravada wrote There are still so many films, shows and series missing... Removing Topgear will not make movies and series appear magically on the site -- Last edit: 2007-12-25 19:07:36
CarChasesFanatic ◊ 2007-12-25 21:48	Bravada wrote I don't find listing of vehicles featured on car shows as that fun, actually. For the most part, they are introduced by their name, and listing them is of little value to the potential viewer. But that's just my opinion. There are still so many films, shows and series missing... I am not against listing Top Gear but i agree on this Bravada says.
G-MANN ◊ 2007-12-31 14:06	I like seeing Top Gear on this site, at first I thought it would be silly because of the sheer amount of cars that would have to be posted (we haven't even cover all of the episodes), but it does introduce an interesting variety of rare and exotic cars to the site. A lot of recent movies that are posted don't feature anything particularly interesting, just everyday cars. If people feel there are lot of movies missing from this site (and I agree with them), they are perfectly welcome to submit pictures for them (preferably DVD if you have a DVD drive).
TheHeartbreakKid15 ◊ 2009-07-29 20:01	The vehicle details for L652 MDP are: Date of Liability 01 01 2008 Date of First Registration 13 01 1994 Year of Manufacture 1994 Cylinder Capacity (cc) 2975CC CO2 Emissions Not Available Fuel Type Petrol Export Marker Not Applicable Vehicle Status Unlicensed Vehicle Colour BLUE Vehicle Type Approval null
Mudflap ◊ 2011-02-02 17:24	Internet Moaning at Clarkson Data Base -- Last edit: 2012-09-25 21:45:30
Gomselmash11 ◊ 2011-02-02 17:28	Mudflap wrote Internet Moaning at Clarkson Data Base The translate to spanish its... Internet Gimiendo en Clarkson Datos Base IGCDB
Sandie ◊ 2011-02-02 17:34	Can I be the first [and most likely last] to say that I quite like Jeremy Clarkson?
Nightrider ◊ 2011-02-02 17:51	Who the f**k is Clarkson and why I should listen about his car preferences? Sometimes he's funny but...not always. He still think, that GB is intercontinental empire and BLC still produce poor quality cars.
dsl ◊ 2011-02-02 17:55	In more recent TG crashes and destructions, we've picked up some clues that the destroyed car was not quite what it seems, but I can't spot the join here (although the 2nd thumb does not seem to have a driver - it looks like gadgets on the seats). DVLA details for L652 MDP (above) suggest it probably did get genuinely smashed as the pictures suggest. Can't find a figure for what a 14-year old A610 would have sold for in 2008, but would guess £3-5000 tops - they are/were cheaper than expected. -- Last edit: 2011-02-03 00:56:11
130rapid ◊ 2011-02-02 18:04	Well, you can change the channel easy. And it's the best way to show deep disapproval. Just don't watch it.
dudley ◊ 2011-02-02 18:09	This (mint ex-show) car was the one that was trashed. The engine was on eBay a few weeks after the recording of the show.
Nightrider ◊ 2011-02-02 18:27	130rapid wrote Well, you can change the channel easy. And it's the best way to show deep disapproval. Just don't watch it. I don't watch TV at all.) But I can't ignore existence of certain things, including self-proclaimed car guru Clarkson.
G-MANN ◊ 2011-02-02 18:29	Nightrider wrote Who the fk is Clarkson He's a famous British motoring journalist/TV presenter. He's been on TV for about 20 years (which is a pretty long time when you think about it, people like Simon Cowell and Gordon Ramsay have only been on TV for 5 years) But fair enough, I don't know of any Russian TV celebrities. Sandie** wrote Can I be the first [and most likely last] to say that I quite like Jeremy Clarkson? Me too. My dad says he's become a parody of himself and is past his sell-by-date, but I still find him and Top Gear mostly entertaining. I don't look up to him as some kind of hero or national treasure, I understand why some people why some people have a problem with him and find him arrogant and a real Tory (Conservative) but I don't think you're really supposed to take him seriously, even he would probably agree. I think he's fairly harmless unless you really believe he's an automotive vandal killing cars that are "endangered species". -- Last edit: 2011-02-02 18:37:44
Nightrider ◊ 2011-02-02 18:35	G-MANN wrote He's a famous British motoring journalist/TV presenter. He's been on TV for about 20 years (which is a pretty long time when you think about it, people like Simon Cowell and Gordon Ramsay have only been on TV for 5 years) But fair enough, I don't know of any Russian TV celebrities. As far I know, he delivers mostly his own car preferences, instead of any valuable info about cars. And this thing reduce his valuable as journalist, for me. I don't know of any Russian TV celebrities too, BTW.
G-MANN ◊ 2011-02-02 18:45	Well, when I say motoring journalist, I mean that's how he originally began his career, it's probably true that he isn't really one any more. He's sort of a car critic, not the most objective one but even the best critics are mostly just giving an opinion. And Top Gear the television program was originally more about car information but has since (especially it was completely revamped in 2001) moved towards entertainment. If you want to decide what the best small hatchback for you to buy is, go and buy a magazine like "What Car?" Nightrider wrote I don't know of any Russian TV celebrities too, BTW. Don't you live in Russia? -- Last edit: 2011-02-02 18:48:16
Sandie ◊ 2011-02-02 18:47	I don't think anyone (Premier League footballers aside) watches Clarkson's shows to help make a decision on what car to drive. It is not journalism... It is not old Top Gear or such a show. Nobody watched those. New Top Gear is merely light entertainment and I'd rather watch three middle aged blokes having a laugh with some cars than the mentally ill being humiliated by some bloke who's trousers are up to his ribs or "celebrities" dancing.
Nightrider ◊ 2011-02-02 18:49	G-MANN wrote Don't you live in Russia? I do.
Nightrider ◊ 2011-02-02 18:52	Sandie wrote I don't think anyone (Premier League footballers aside) watches Clarkson's shows to help make a decision on what car to drive. I would ask: does any car enthusiast watches Clarkson's shows? What kind of people is his public?
G-MANN ◊ 2011-02-02 18:52	Also if you watch motoring programs that are more serious they tend to be much less entertainng, especially the ones on the cheap digital channels. My dad has recently bought a new caravan and now watches the Caravan Channel and it really is pretty boring and amateurishly-made.
G-MANN ◊ 2011-02-02 18:57	Nightrider wrote I would ask: does any car enthusiast watches Clarkson's shows? What kind of people is his public? What is a car enthusiast? Does it have to be somebody with an encyclopedic knowledge of cars (mostly older cars), spends a lot of their free time on cars and is frankly a bit of a trainspotter/anorak/nerd? Or just anyone who really loves cars and knows a good amount about them but has plenty of other interests? I don't know how many of the former watch Top Gear but the program has a large audience so many of them will just be "ordinary people", even people who haven't always had a passion for cars. -- Last edit: 2011-02-02 19:00:23
G-MANN ◊ 2011-02-02 18:58	Nightrider wrote I do. So do you not watch Russian television? There must be some famous Russian television presenters (famous in Russia at least).
dsl ◊ 2011-02-02 19:11	Nightrider wrote What kind of people is his public? Quote: "Last month it was named most popular factual programme at the UK's National Television Awards. A US-made Top Gear is broadcast by History Channel, while Australia and Russia also make local versions of the show." (from Link to "edition.cnn.com" ). So the answer seems to be nearly everybody and in very large numbers. As Sandie says, however badly done/insensitive/destructive the show is, it has to be preferable to cough (yes ingo it's those cigarettes again) reality TV which takes a sadistic delight in humiliating people on screen. But JC's attack on "practical Renault" drivers may be his epitath ....... Side thought: if he has the monster ego which most people suggest, he'd be hugely pleased to see all this discussion about him. He would not care if he is hated but enjoy the whole experience. -- Last edit: 2011-02-02 19:28:36
Nightrider ◊ 2011-02-02 19:12	G-MANN wrote So do you not watch Russian television? There must be some famous Russian television presenters (famous in Russia at least). Well...there must be. Unfortunateley for them, I don't give a...i.e. I don't much care. For certain reasons.
G-MANN ◊ 2011-02-02 19:19	Well anyway, when you said "Who the f**k is Clarkson" (as if to say "who is he to say and does these things"/"who does he think he is") I jokingly replied to it as if you meant it literally, because you live in Russia and Clarkson is probably not famous there.
Nightrider ◊ 2011-02-02 19:22	G-MANN wrote I don't know how many of the former watch Top Gear but the program has a large audience so many of them will just be "ordinary people", even people who haven't always had a passion for cars. Yep. Also, show deals with cars which are too expensive and unpractical for that "ordinary people". So they have little chance to have own opinion about that vehicles. Hm. Would it be politically incorrect if I say "flock" instead of "his public"?
Nightrider ◊ 2011-02-02 19:33	G-MANN wrote because you live in Russia and Clarkson is probably not famous there. Unfortunately he is. We even have Top Gear magazine over here, with carefully translated Jeremy's articles.
G-MANN ◊ 2011-02-02 19:46	Nightrider wrote Would it be politically incorrect if I say "flock" instead of "his public"? No, not at all, but it's not really an expression we use here. The most accurate phrase to use would be "his audience". Nightrider wrote Unfortunately he is. We even have Top Gear magazine over here, with carefully translated Jeremy's articles. Wow, I had no idea! Often I don't know whether some things are famous in other (non-English-speaking) countries, I often assume with television programs they have their own stuff that they watch. The only Russian media thing that we have in the UK is the digital news channel Russian Today (which is in English)
Nightrider ◊ 2011-02-02 19:57	G-MANN wrote Wow, I had no idea! Often I don't know whether some things are famous in other (non-English-speaking) countries, I often assume with television programs they have their own stuff that they watch. The only Russian media thing that we have in the UK is the digital news channel Russian Today (which is in English) i just want to say, that speaking about such cars for people, who basically don't care about cars reminds me that one-eyed in country of blind. Yep,there was Russian version of Top Gear, also listed here, but it turned out to be unpopular and criticized.
G-MANN ◊ 2011-02-02 20:05	Do many Russian people buy all the popular European cars (Fords, Volkswagens, Renaults, Peugeots, Citroens, Fiats, Opels, Volvos, Jaguars, Minis etc.)? Is there still a large percentage of Russian-made cars there? I'm just wondering whether all Top Gear articles about the cars we buy in Britain as relevant there?
Nightrider ◊ 2011-02-02 20:13	G-MANN wrote Do many Russian people buy all the popular European cars (Fords, Volkswagens, Renaults, Peugeots, Citroens, Fiats, Opels, Volvos, Jaguars, Minis etc.)? Is there still a large percentage of Russian-made cars there? I'm just wondering whether all Top Gear articles about the cars we buy in Britain as relevant there? Over here...alot of VWs, Skodas, Fords (mostly Focuses), fairly big quanity of Opels. French cars isn't much popular, most common Renault is Logan, which is in reality Dacia. Actually I think, that main reason for it was already mentioned. It is entertaining.
Ingo ◊ 2011-02-02 22:28	Full agreement with Nightrider Clarkson is indeed a totally uninteresting, unimportant shithead, making a total useless and unimportant "show", where he is always flatulate total uminportant bullshit (noting more than his own opinion). His show is meant just for idiots, mainly/especially little stupid, uneducated low-class shitheads. Now there might coming up here some clowns, who have the impudence to feel personally annoyed about my expressions, I will keep my opionion, about this "show", Clarkson itself and his fans, too - although I never ever have watched any episode of any Clarkson-made "shows". It's not neccessary anyways - the pics, threads and opinions here at IMCDB are enough to conceive and reinforce my point of view without any reason to reconsider it. @G-Mann: this has nothing to do with the fact, that it's a British guy and a British made concotion
Gomselmash11 ◊ 2011-02-02 22:43	I asked a while ago and do not know if it was clear But what is the fun of CLARKSON TO DESTROY CARS? i don't know... Here Top Gear just watched by the nerds of this program. Surely there are several, but not all.
Ingo ◊ 2011-02-02 22:46	130rapid wrote Well, you can change the channel easy. And it's the best way to show deep disapproval. Just don't watch it. Not all TV-viewers, even not IMCDB-members have realized that simple idea I repeated that just some days ago to wasserspeier, who is always busy with whining and complaining about detroyed cars. You really feel better, if you avoid watching TV-shows, -talkshows, -soaps, and -movies, especially the shit, all the private TV-companies are cobbling. News (by serious stations), political and history-documentations and travelling-reportages, these are the only programs, I'm picking out for me (still as in the ancient 80ies, where only 3 or 5 TV-stations were available). So as Nightrider I cannot say anything about our national or local TV-celebrities, too. So I cannot participate with the discussions about them or about all this TV-junk. And when I say something, it provokes annoyed feelings at the others. So it happend just last Saturday, at the dinner with my wife's family. I dislike, to talk about TV-programmes while eating, resp. in the family or between colleagues at all. My wife was really pissed (but I ignored that willingly), when I was successful with cutting the boring conversation about some stupid private-TV-shit with "What a poor and boring life you all must have, when you have the need to watch this incredible debile shit, made for debile spastics, and -much worse- even have the need to talk about that! It's so annoying, that I would like to go home now." To the contrary to all these little remarks in some TV-junk-"shows" I only can confirm confidently: "Try this at home!" It really works! The best and fastest way, not to feel annoyed about uninteresting opinions about idiotic shit. -- Last edit: 2011-02-02 22:50:30
Ingo ◊ 2011-02-02 22:47	Gomselmash11 wrote I asked a while ago and do not know if it was clear But what is the fun of CLARKSON TO DESTROY CARS? i don't know... I don't know either. But it's not worth to think about it anyways. Time and brain-activity, wasted for nothing.
Gomselmash11 ◊ 2011-02-02 22:49	ingo wrote I don't know either. But it's not worth to think about it anyways. Time and brain-activity, wasted for nothing. Agree
Nightrider ◊ 2011-02-02 22:54	ingo wrote Full agreement with Nightrider Clarkson is indeed a totally uninteresting, unimportant shithead, making a total useless and unimportant "show", where he is always flatulate total uminportant bullshit (noting more than his own opinion). His show is meant just for idiots, mainly/especially little stupid, uneducated low-class shitheads. Now there might coming up here some clowns, who have the impudence to feel personally annoyed about my expressions, I will keep my opionion, about this "show", Clarkson itself and his fans, too - although I never ever have watched any episode of any Clarkson-made "shows". It's not neccessary anyways - the pics, threads and opinions here at IMCDB are enough to conceive and reinforce my point of view without any reason to reconsider it. Glad to meet some German reinforcements.) Some dark humor:as my friend said:"Clarkson's coffin should be made of Morris Marina". I prefer to see him cremated and spread over former BMC factory. On more serious note: of course it's good that Clarkson have opinion. But he shove his opinions down thousands throats via TV.
Ingo ◊ 2011-02-02 23:00	Nightrider wrote On more serious note: of course it's good that Clarkson have opinion. But he shove his opinions down thousands throats via TV. Everyone should have an own opinion - but where the f.ck is the neccessarity to blow around the private opinion about cars (or anything else) of an irrelevant freak? And this for years?
Weasel1984 ◊ 2011-02-02 23:09	ingo wrote News (by serious stations), This should be ommitted the most IMO. More "pro", bigger budget = more manipulative. :P there are no serious TV stations today.
Nightrider ◊ 2011-02-02 23:09	ingo wrote Everyone should have an own opinion - but where the f.ck is the neccessarity to blow around the private opinion about cars (or anything else) of an irrelevant freak? And this for years? Maybe...because he can? Nobody wants an adequate analysis from him, so... But I'm interesting, how honest he in his opinions?
Weasel1984 ◊ 2011-02-02 23:54	He has a personality disorder or... Let's be honest, I will never forget, how in one episode he told, that Alfa Brera is the ugliest car ever made (he nearly puked) and then, few eps later, he and dwarf were delighted, that Brera is beautiful - and it was not any joke or malice. Everyone can change opinion, but... Since this time, I do not watch TG. Well and those "jokes" about Mexicans, no comment... -- Last edit: 2011-02-03 00:22:22
Nightrider ◊ 2011-02-02 23:58	Weasel1984 wrote in one episode he told, that Alfa Brera is the ugliest car ever made (he nearly puked) and then, few eps later, he and dwarf were delighted, that Brera is beautiful - and it was not any joke or malice. Ahhhh...)) Where we can find it? I want to listen it myself.))
Weasel1984 ◊ 2011-02-03 00:01	Which exactly episode it was, unfortunately I will not tell you. It was 5 years ago. Well though can be possible to check on IMCDb TG page... Edit: Perhaps this one was when they said it is cool - /vehicle_36855-Alfa-Romeo-Brera-2006.html I remember in this ep. they had it only at the studio, not sure was it red though, maybe black, but on the site is only a red one... In the one when he "puked" Alfa was only at the pic - on the screen (with new cars) or on the paper sheet - few eps. earlier. -- Last edit: 2011-02-03 00:32:06
Sandie ◊ 2011-02-03 00:07	Considering that they have just now pulled the Spider and Brera from the UK market following (I guess) slow sales their endorsement and opinion mattered not a jot to the paying customers.
G-MANN ◊ 2011-02-03 00:29	ingo wrote So it happend just last Saturday, at the dinner with my wife's family. I dislike, to talk about TV-programmes while eating, resp. in the family or between colleagues at all. My wife was really pissed (but I ignored that willingly), when I was successful with cutting the boring conversation about some stupid private-TV-shit with "What a poor and boring life you all must have, when you have the need to watch this incredible debile shit, made for debile spastics, and -much worse- even have the need to talk about that! It's so annoying, that I would like to go home now." Did you really say that to your in-laws (albeit in German)? I hope you already have a very good relationship with them and they're cool enough not to mind about such a comment because that sounds pretty rude. -- Last edit: 2011-02-08 05:08:25
G-MANN ◊ 2011-02-03 00:46	ingo wrote @G-Mann: this has nothing to do with the fact, that it's a British guy and a British made concotion Don't worry, I can think of other popular things (X-Factor, The Jeremy Kyle Show) that make the British public look dumb for watching so much I don't tend to get very offended when people mock the British, I don't take it personally because it's a very generalised insult (we're not perfect either). Anti-British remarks usually don't bother me. -- Last edit: 2011-02-03 00:54:38
Ingo ◊ 2011-02-03 01:42	G-MANN wrote Did you really say that to your in-laws (albiet in German)? I hope you already have a very good relationship with them and they're cool enough not to mind about such a comment because that sounds pretty rude. "albiets" Sorry, this term is unknown. Sometimes clear words are helpful It's not the only subject area, the others know, that I easily can go through the roof.
G-MANN ◊ 2011-02-03 01:48	What I meant was "except in German". What you wrote would have been the English translation of what you said.
Ingo ◊ 2011-02-03 01:49	G-MANN wrote so much I don't tend to get very offended when people mock the British, I don't take it personally because it's a very generalised insult (we're not perfect either). Anti-British remarks usually don't bother me. In Germany there aren't too many Anti-British remarks/prejudices/jokes common. Not as some British newspapers are doing before some football-matches about Germany. And even that don't really annoy us. It's seen more as folklore. And also as a kind of respect, even a little inferiority-complex, as I just read in a "manual for better understanding" England and the English ( Link to "www.christoph-links-verlag.de" ) Informative series, I also have the books about USA, Poland and Holland. -- Last edit: 2011-02-03 01:51:01
Ingo ◊ 2011-02-03 01:55	For a while jokes about Polish were common, also it was a kind of ritual of a German show/talkmaster to have always one new in every show. But it's ebbed away, since it got too constrained and boring. In Southern Germany there are pejorative jokes about the Austrians, but there in the North we don't know them.
Nightrider ◊ 2011-02-03 09:37	Back to Jeremy, I think that a lot of people thinks that he's very cool as he can bash any cars he want without any pity.
Ingo ◊ 2011-02-03 10:53	Nightrider wrote Back to Jeremy, I think that a lot of people thinks that he's very cool as he can bash any cars he want without any pity. Exactly this thinking makes it worth to condemn these people. All little uneducated low-class-wankers.
G-MANN ◊ 2011-02-03 12:10	Nightrider wrote he can bash any cars he want without any pity. When you say "bash" do you mean as in "wreck" or "criticize"?
Nightrider ◊ 2011-02-03 14:23	G-MANN wrote When you say "bash" do you mean as in "wreck" or "criticize"? Both of them. )
130rapid ◊ 2011-02-03 14:56	Nightrider wrote Back to Jeremy, I think that a lot of people thinks that he's very cool as he can bash any cars he want without any pity. Hundreds Youtube movies with suckers just silly demolishing or racing-to-dead retired cars or seizing old engines confirm that.
rjluna2 ◊ 2011-02-03 15:01	Don't forget our government's method of destroying engine for cash for clunker program
Nightrider ◊ 2011-02-03 16:04	130rapid wrote Hundreds Youtube movies with suckers just silly demolishing or racing-to-dead retired cars or seizing old engines confirm that. But that videos not broadcasted around the world and nobody care about that suckers.
Ingo ◊ 2011-02-04 12:39	Why are the comments and the discussion, caused by carobserver's rage there: /movie_446299-Clarkson-s-Top-100-Cars.html deleted This comes close to censorship and I'm not really amused, to write comments for the garbage-box Though carobserver was going too far with his choice of words, it's no reason to delete all comments of the others. And the argument, that it was off-toppic, doesn't fit - it was more on-topic than this bugging cluttering up the database with the DVLA-datas of all the cars, appearing in te Clarklson-"show".
G-MANN ◊ 2011-02-04 21:07	I'm not bothered, myself. I still remember what we said to each other and let's be honest, why were we having that chat? To kill time, we had nothing better to do. (I'm not saying that talking to you is a waste of time, btw ) It was a throwaway discussion but was a bit off-topic. I couldn't have seen myself revisting that discussion (believe or not, sometimes I have looked back at some old comments from people) ingo wrote This comes close to censorship Meh, so what? ingo wrote it was more on-topic than this bugging cluttering up the database with the DVLA-datas of all the cars, appearing in te Clarklson-"show". That stuff doesn't really take up that much space per vehicle and it's helpful to determine the year and engine size of a car. What is a waste of space is people quoting entire comments when adding a comment immediately below
Ingo ◊ 2011-02-04 21:22	G-MANN wrote That stuff doesn't really take up that much space per vehicle and it's helpful to determine the year and engine size of a car. When a new model/version is released, as usual there (if not cars, which were trashed)? Absolutely useless, because the clow... -err, the fans- who are watching this "show", will hear it by the comments and are able to list the car correctly. That's enough. This DVLA-check makes only sense, when we cannot identify a car exactly, or when we have the remarkable situation, that a car, appearing in an older movie/show/series is indeed still existing. So it's still my opinion, that especially the work of TheHeartbreakKid15 is just cluttering up the database.
G-MANN ◊ 2011-02-04 21:29	Well Ingo, I still like to have the DVLA info listed, that's all I can say. ingo wrote especially the work of TheHeartbreakKid15 is just cluttering up the database. Not really. It might only be irritating to some when they click "See all comments" and find a load of blocks of DVLA info. -- Last edit: 2011-02-04 21:30:40
Sandie ◊ 2011-02-04 21:29	It's useful in some older cars (10, 15 years +) to find out if they are still on the road. However, for new cars in TV series it is not as helpful as the cars will generally be pretty much always still on the road. Also most of the time the uploader or an admin will run a check and add trim and engine details themselves without posting a comment.
G-MANN ◊ 2011-02-04 21:32	Sandie wrote Also most of the time the uploader or an admin will run a check and add trim and engine details themselves without posting a comment. I know and I used to do that, but now I think it's better to show some evidence. People like rcpm just write "DVLA checked" or "hpi checked" which is fine but I choose to copy and paste the site text. That's my choice (and it doesn't really take up much space ) -- Last edit: 2011-02-04 21:35:53
G-MANN ◊ 2011-02-04 21:41	PS. I don't know what you mean here: ingo wrote When a new model/version is released, as usual there (if not cars, which were trashed)? Absolutely useless, because the clow... -err, the fans- who are watching this "show", will hear it by the comments and are able to list the car correctly. But maybe we should just agree to disagree and leave this little discussion. -- Last edit: 2011-02-04 21:42:09
dsl ◊ 2011-02-04 21:47	If I check DVLA or other similar I always post it - saves anyone else having to do it. Where we don't have the details, the assumption is no-one's looked. So I say put it in - even if the results are predictable - so the box is ticked and we have the full info presented.
G-MANN ◊ 2011-02-04 21:58	Also, since people have begun to complain about DVLA info wasting space, I've started deleting lines where it says "not applicable" or "export marker not used".
Ingo ◊ 2011-02-04 22:58	G-MANN wrote PS. I don't know what you mean here: The most cars, shown in this "show", are new models, often brand new company-owned demonstration- or test-drive-models. Their DVLA-datas are really uninteresting and not helpful. Yes, it is the newest version and yes, it's surely still on the road. And Clarkson or his henchmen will surely tell some detail-informations about them. Due all that, DVLA is senseless for all these new cars. -- Last edit: 2011-02-04 22:59:52
antp ◊ 2011-02-05 17:01	ingo wrote So it's still my opinion, that especially the work of TheHeartbreakKid15 is just cluttering up the database. It is useful to have some DVLA info, IMHO. What is cluttering the pages is lines like this: CO2 Emissions Not Available Vehicle Type Approval null which are really useless (and some of the others, depending on the car)
antp ◊ 2011-02-05 17:23	ingo wrote Why are the comments and the discussion, caused by carobserver's rage there: /movie_446299-Clarkson-s-Top-100-Cars.html deleted This comes close to censorship and I'm not really amused, to write comments for the garbage-box I saw a bunch of off-topic stuff about comes which were already deleted (by Carobserver, I guess), it seemed useless to me For that I plan to add a shoutbox, i.e. a kind of chat with short-term storage (as for that it is useless to keep that on long term). Stop using the comments like a chat and comments won't be deleted There is the forum for discussions If you find DVLA info less useful than chatting about mayonnaise and travel, maybe you misunderstood the purpose of the comments on the site -- Last edit: 2011-02-05 17:34:50
Ingo ◊ 2011-02-05 17:40	This specific, now deleted discussion didn't include mayonnaise, it was in a direct context to the said "show" and it's maker carobserver was in rage about that.
G-MANN ◊ 2011-02-06 22:27	antp wrote There is the forum for discussions I think people find the forum more constrictive and not as easy to use as the main site. Here you can just click "See all comments" and see what's been posted very quickly. And also somehow it's easier to start random discussions about things here (someone sees a picture of with something in it and that makes them start talking about something)
Neptune ◊ 2011-02-07 01:40	It’s sad to see the site being used as an instant messenger, even though G-MANN is correct, it is convenient by nature. I do use an instant messenger program (windows live messenger) as I am online quite frequently. Perhaps it would be best to try and lead users into using some type of IM (perhaps setting up a group) until a dedicated messaging utility of some kind is made for the site. I know the site has been moved allowing it more resources, but doesn’t mean it should be abused.
Ford_Guy ◊ 2011-02-07 02:35	I agree. Usually I don't mind the long-winded conversations as long as they stay somewhat relevant to the page they are on. But when they go so off-topic, it looks bad and can be annoying for those who are actually looking for information pertinent to a vehicle/movie.
Ingo ◊ 2011-02-07 19:12	But the forum is only used by some single members and often nothing happens for a longer time. And the discussion was caused directly by a reaction of an IMCDB-member about a specific, here listed series. The suggestion, Neptune is mentioning, is not new, it came a time ago, that a function of personal messages would be recommended. Now a bit back in direction on-topic. One hour ago I've seen something for our DVLA-checkers: F 486 USG
dsl ◊ 2011-02-07 19:22	ingo wrote One hour ago I've seen something for our DVLA-checkers: F 486 USG With a bit of merging - Porsche 944 Lux 2.7, Date of Liability 01 11 2010, date of First Registration 01 01 1989. And??
Ingo ◊ 2011-02-07 19:30	One guy in our local garage is busy with wrecking it. It stucked completely dismantled on a forklift. The reason for scrapping was the rust. Even the zinc-coating couldn't avoid the influence of the cough local weather.
dsl ◊ 2011-02-07 19:54	ingo wrote But the forum is only used by some single members and often nothing happens for a longer time. And the discussion was caused directly by a reaction of an IMCDB-member about a specific, here listed series. I agree with ingo - going off-piste only really works on the main database - it's spontaneous and fun, makes it interesting to see where some of the exchanges go. Gradually some of the characters become interesting people from the snapshots which emerge. I do at the same time realise that some of the meanderings will read as total gibberish to other contributors so try not to go bananas too often - the point about the car itself sometimes getting buried under a discussion on Marmite, mixer taps or whatever is well made. One thing I am happier to accept is some discussions being deleted afterwards - they can have very temporary importance, accuracy, rants or whatever which quickly go stale or are irrelevant. Losing these would have little effect, but where there is exchanges of info or real opinion these should stay. If imcdb is a community we should trust each other - if the admins are prepared to allow some off-piste stuff without slapping me down too hard, I am happy to trust their judgement in quietly deleting some of my stuff afterwards when it's passed its sell-by date and become irrelevant. For example I put up a comment the other day about Marmite chocolate to complete a topic mentioned some months ago - it was aimed at 2 contributors, and once they've read it it has served my purpose. If it gets deleted tomorrow - fine by me, or it can stay in case anyone else stumbles over it in the future and is interested - so be it.
dsl ◊ 2011-02-07 19:57	ingo wrote the influence of the cough local weather. Can't be the weather - SG is a Scottish issue (Edinburgh). Road salt.
chicomarx ◊ 2011-02-07 20:04	There's lots of off-topic discussions about off-topic discussions now. Mudflap wrote Could this be the most comments ever posted on a page? It must be close... No, I've seen longer "CLARKSON MUST DIE" threads than this.
Nightrider ◊ 2011-02-07 21:28	chicomarx wrote There's lots of off-topic discussions about off-topic discussions now. No, I've seen longer "CLARKSON MUST DIE" threads than this. I don't think that Clarkson must die. I just realize fact, that he is..."see above".
Ford_Guy ◊ 2011-02-07 21:54	ingo: I get what you mean and I am guilty of the occasional off-topic discussion (such as now). I was just agreeing with antp's and Neptune's idea that some type of chat box or IM would be nice so that these discussions, which are often times irrelevant after a while, don't clutter up the individual pages.
antp ◊ 2011-02-07 23:16	And do not forget: if you fill the database faster than I improve the site to handle the high volume of data that it reaches, we'll head to problems
Ford_Guy ◊ 2011-02-08 17:06	Another thing to keep in mind
93montero ◊ 2011-02-15 05:59	The site moviewatch.in has a somewhat efficient chat box that any member can use that remains to the right of every page on the site. It can also be hidden from view in the settings.

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1994 Renault A610 Turbo [X50]

1994 Renault A610 Turbo [X50] in Clarkson: Supercar Showdown, Documentary, 2007

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